The Wheels Are Off GM's Claim To Be The World's largest Automaker...

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #40 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 07:03 pm »

I can tell you authoritatively

that half of those 150,000 Prius sales must be here in San Francisco area. It's unreal how many of those cars are on the road here - I'm looking at one now right next door in my (environmentalist) neighbor's driveway.

I would think the idea of a hybrid or battery vehicle could be very good from a performance standpoint, too (to add lustre to the charm of better mileage) as the batteries would go low on the body of the car, thus lowering the center of gravity. But, skinny, low rolling resistance tires and low center of gravity and numb steering still make for a pathetic driving vehicle.

John

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #41 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 07:08 pm »

..........and also, where's the Chevy Silverado hybrid on that list?

Nothing better than a hybrid pick-up truck with four 120volt outlets. aa

Bob

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #42 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 07:13 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 27 Jan 2009, 07:03 pm

I can tell you authoritatively that half of those 150,000 Prius sales must be here in San Francisco area. It's unreal how many of those cars are on the road here - I'm looking at one now right next door in my (environmentalist) neighbor's driveway.

I would think the idea of a hybrid or battery vehicle could be very good from a performance standpoint, too (to add lustre to the charm of better mileage) as the batteries would go low on the body of the car, thus lowering the center of gravity. But, skinny, low rolling resistance tires and low center of gravity and numb steering still make for a pathetic driving vehicle.

John

We have a lot of them too. There are regional differences. What sells in Seattle doesn't necessarily sell in Chicago.

Of GM's new lineup what interest me the most is the Cruise. The Volt is out of my price range. The Cruise should get 40mpg and come in under $15K.

S Clark · « **Reply #43 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 07:23 pm »

I wonder how well the hybrids do when running an A/C? To sell one in AZ, TX, or FL I'd think that they would be running mostly on gasoline 9 months out of the year.

JLM · « **Reply #44 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 07:28 pm »

A friend's Prius (during this relatively harsh Michigan January) is only getting 33 mpg (my new Corolla is getting 34 mpg and cost thousands less without the $2500 battery changeout expected at 125,000 miles).

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #45 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:01 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 27 Jan 2009, 07:28 pm

A friend's Prius (during this relatively harsh Michigan January) is only getting 33 mpg (my new Corolla is getting 34 mpg and cost thousands less without the $2500 battery changeout expected at 125,000 miles).

My Hyundai Accent is averaging 34mpg since new. I only have 3500 miles on it so that isn't a huge data range and I'm only getting 30mpg with winter driving (warm-up, winter fuel and driving conditions). But hey... it only cost $10,500 new so it is a lot cheaper to buy than a hybrid.

The hybrids don't make sense to me. I'm all for environmental improvement. It just seems like the diesels are a better solution. They get pretty much the same types of MPG as the hybrids and it is "old school" technology. The hybrids do have an advantage in the city driving but overall, I'm just not impressed with them as a cost effective solution. I'd much rather see a whole new generation of diesels coming out that get >50mpg.

sbrtoy · « **Reply #46 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:08 pm »

Quote from: Bob in St. Louis on 27 Jan 2009, 06:32 pm

281,000 hybrid vehicles sold in 08.
wow. that's stunning.
How many tens of millions of total vehicle sales where there?

Doesn't look like there's much public interest to me.
Bob

2008 sales results-

BMW sold 63,000
Mazda sold 97,000
Nissan 304,000

281,000 hybrids is not at all insignificant....hybrids outsold Buick, Cadillac, Hummer, Pontiac, and Saturn combined last year (these brands sold 254,000 combined)...

woodsyi · « **Reply #47 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:14 pm »

Hey Kevin,

I was going to convince my green wife, who made me get rid of my Yukon for environmental (and economic) reason, that Yukon hybrid gets better mileage than a minivan. She will spend the money to save the earth. I am good with that.

doorman · « **Reply #48 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:18 pm »

Heck, my VW Golf TDI gets 1000km's per 45L.
(and you don't need a hazmat team to attend in the event of an accident!)
Don

sbrtoy · « **Reply #49 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:23 pm »

And for all the people who do not follow...hybrids are a bridge technology, and what do you think will power vehicles with fuel cells or pure EV's?? Electric motors with regeneration of kinetic energy....do you really think having advanced research on hybrids isn't important?? (and I'm not talking about an extra belt on an alternator).

At current levels of demand, the world supply of oil will begin going into its death spiral between 2020 and 2040.

My aunt's Prius in Phoenix gets an average of 45mpg year-round doing freeway commutes.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #50 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:28 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 27 Jan 2009, 08:14 pm

Hey Kevin,

I was going to convince my green wife, who made me get rid of my Yukon for environmental (and economic) reason, that Yukon hybrid gets better mileage than a minivan. She will spend the money to save the earth. I am good with that.

Hey... you have to do what it takes to keep the wife happy. That is critical if you know what I mean.

I know they are a bridge technology. I'm just not interested in being the first one crossing that new bridge.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #51 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:30 pm »

Quote from: sbrtoy on 27 Jan 2009, 08:08 pm

281,000 hybrids is not at all insignificant....hybrids outsold Buick, Cadillac, Hummer, Pontiac, and Saturn combined last year (these brands sold 254,000 combined)...

Unless I'm reading >THIS< wrong, GM had 2008 North American sales of:
154,275 Buicks
382,949 Pontiacs
170,481 Cadillacs
29,968 Hummers
206,733 Saturns

Bob

sbrtoy · « **Reply #52 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:36 pm »

Bob,

I was comparing to their truck sales, sorry I wrote it wrong....trying to illustrate the shift. Dodge Ram sold 254,000 units if this is a better comparison in this thread.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #53 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:47 pm »

Ohhh, Ok. Gotcha.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #54 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:49 pm »

Interesting table Bob.....60% of GM sales now are non-North American.

As well, the only growth seen in 2008 was in China.

Sign of things to come, perhaps....

John

sbrtoy · « **Reply #55 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:55 pm »

Quote from: Bob in St. Louis on 27 Jan 2009, 08:47 pm

Ohhh, Ok. Gotcha.

For a new vehicle to go into development typically planning volume would need to be 50,000 units unless it is a niche high-margin vehicle. A 325,000 unit segment in 2007 seemed like there was plenty of opportunity for more than two manufacturers to compete, then as I already mentioned buyer habits changed with the price of gas.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #56 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 08:59 pm »

It is an interesting table John. I'd like to know where the 1,935 Opel/Vauxhall units went in North America.
There's a few of those I'd LOVE to drive. aa But there is a question of the legality of them here though.

The 23,000 Saabs sold in the US doesn't look good for my job security..........

Glad I saw that.

Bob

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #57 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 09:14 pm »

I think GM's SAAB sales are particularly off in North America when they began pairing existing Chevy dealers with SAAB dealerships to streamline the whole GMAC thing. It's a totally different customer make-up for the two brands....and one of the major reasons that GM bought the brand in the first place.

The product offered is still unique among GM offerings, despite the corporate platforms underneath...where GM screwed up mostly is at the dealer level.

I went twice to my local SAAB dealer, a gigunda Chevy/GMAC dealer that replaced the local SAAB dealer when they retired after 40 years in the business in 2003. It was a horrible experience - the type I haven't seen in many years and the type that you read mostly about. High pressure, high/low ball you and you get the best price as you're walking out of the showroom (in disgust over their antics).

No one likes that type of sales....but the SAAB customer, overwhelmingly college educated and (historically) has high income and disposable income, is the most turned off of all among 'em. GM killed that brand, originally bought to offer an alternative to BMW if you can believe (hence the obvious references 9-3 and 9-5 zeroing in on their targets in the market) - and it's not the product solely that is the issue.

RIP SAAB

(sorry Bob)

John

sbrtoy · « **Reply #58 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 09:31 pm »

I was hopeful Saab would go back to Swedish ownership, but who knows....Volvo while not successful for Ford at least still has a brand image here, Saab seems to have lost this unfortunately.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #59 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 09:51 pm »

As a GM guy, I HATE for Saab to be a part of them, as do the snobby customers who get pissed when their $30K to $40,000 SAAB is broken. And of COURSE it's General motors fault.

The owners of $40K to $60,000 Chevrolet's I used to work with never had that attitude. So yea, you're right John there's a Helluva difference in the demographic alright.
I wouldn't mind SAAB going back to Swedish ownership. Might be better for all involved.

Bob