Room treatment topic again................Acoustical or otherwise!

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 6432 times.

Wayner

We need a new topic and I have the day off (again) so here this subject goes. My friend, oneinthepipe has been busy putting up some very nice room treatments in his listening area where he has his AVA Insight amp, preamp and DAC along with his new Salk Songtowers. He tells me he is very happy. I've been looking around the studio and decided I needed something between the speakers. But, the treatments are a bit spendy so I decided to make something. (Yes sometimes I'm really cheap). So, off to Menards I went and found some 12" square x 3/8" thick Portuguese cork so I bought 8 pieces for about $20. When I got home, I decided I didn't want to use the supplied adhesive tape to secure the cork to the wall so I went to my friends Sears store and got a side of a refrigerator cardboard box. I cut that to a 2' X 4' dimension and then glued the cork tile to the cardboard with the good old yellow Elmer's glue. It is now been screwed to the wall in between the speakers at about the tweeter level.



If any of you have been to Franks showroom, you may have noticed the treatment that he has done. For those that haven't, he has what looks like sonotex tile all over his ceiling and a textured wall paper on the walls. He also has a nice (and new) Berber carpet on the floor. While the room isn't anechoic, it is very quite and you can tell when you go down into the area.

My room isn't like that, however it's not bad. I have Berber carpeting on the floor, textured ceiling (also insulated above) and there are several in and outs on the back wall. Now, with the new home made wall treatment, it seems to be another shade quieter. Hand claps have almost no ringing in the room. Speakers and the imaging seem to be very good.

Here is my question. Is there a better material to use to make home made room treatments or should I just quit being a cheapo and go buy some real ones? What are you using or aren't you using anything at all?

Wayner


TomW16

Hey Wayner,

Congratulations on going down the room treatment road.  I am in the process of building a dedicated home theater/2-channel listening room in my basement, which will be isolated and have acoustical treatments when it is finished.  Bryan Pape is giving me advice on some of the finer points.

I believe that the speaker room interface is one of the most overlooked aspects of good sound.  We buy electronics with frequency responses fractions of a decibel off being ruler flat.  Speakers can be within a decibel or two off a flat frequency response but the room can play havoc on the frequency response that we hear and the room is rarely treated.

Bass nodes tend to be problematic in most people's rooms and can be treated with bass absorbers.  Treating the first reflection points (ceiling, floor and walls) helps as well.  The theory is that the thicker the absorptive material (rigid fiberglass is common) the more absorption in the lower frequencies.  For example, 4 inch rigid fiberglass will absorb more low frequency sound than 2 inch rigid fiberglass.

Cheers,
Tom

bpape

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 4465
  • I am serious and don't call my Shirley
    • Sensible Sound Solutions
Sorry but the cork isn't going to do much of anything.

You can DIY treatments from standard fluffy insulation framed and cloth covered.  The additional thickness can make up for the lack of density.

Or - you can buy cheap ceiling tiles and rip the facing off of them and use multiple layers.  They're usually around 2lb density. 

Bryan

mark funk

Right now my room is half concrete and half stud wall unfinished and before I hang the walls, what should I put in the wall to stop the sound from going through the wall? :smoke:

Big Red Machine

And over the top of the wall.

Isolated mass system is the optimal.  Bryan will expound.

orthobiz

Um, how about a picture panned out a bit, showing the speakers AND the cork?

Paul

TomW16

Hi Mark,

You are at the perfect stage for isolation if you want to go through the trouble.  Isolation requires mass and space.  So for any noise to stay in the room (and outside noise out of the room) the room walls should be heavy and be separated from the house structure.  The room should be as air tight as possible too.  The weight can come from doubling up drywall on the wall.  Physically separating the wall from the house structure can be done with the use of isolation clips.  I am using PAC International DC-04 clips.  Figuring out how to install doors that are isolated can be a bit tricky though.

Isolation seems to be an all or nothing proposition because if you don't address everything, the sound finds a flanking path to go around the barriers and much of the extra work is for not.  For example, recessed lights, electrical outlets, HVAC system, etc. are all areas that sound could escape from.

Cheers,
Tom

Wayner

I disagree that it's not doing anything. I can hear a better sound stage. I certainly don't want to kill any bass because the room is bass shy because of the speakers midwall mounting position.



I do need to listen to this a little more.

Wayner

bpape

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 4465
  • I am serious and don't call my Shirley
    • Sensible Sound Solutions
Well, if it's doing anything, it's likely only from a few kHz up.  That coupled with just being a bit flexible as opposed to drywall.

You'd be surprised what bass control in a room does.  Many times, you end up with more, deeper and better bass by dealing with the cancellations. 

Bryan

BobM

GIK makes some nice, effective and inexpensive panels. I would look there instead of building your own. Not much savings in DIY vs the effort vs the cost and effexctiveness of the GIK product line.

Bob

orthobiz

With the money you saved on the cork, you can invest a few thousand in cables. :lol:

I think the Camel LP is helping, too...

Paul

oneinthepipe

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1378
  • Trainee
    • Salk Signature Sound/Audio by Van Alstine two-channel system
Wayner:

I don't understand about killing the bass.  If you put some bass traps in the corners, the bass will increase in depth, definition, and punch.  I know that the idea of low frequency absorption increasing bass response seems bizarre, but the "bad bass", the standing waves, resonance, echo, reflection, etc., of low frequencies in an untreated room actually interferes with the listener's ability to hear the "good" bass.  (That is my layman's way of describing the result.)

In general, I suspect, a combination of absorption and diffusion is preferable.  However, room size and location of listening positions probably contributes to the effectiveness of diffusion.  In my small room and single listening position, I have relied solely on absorption.  I have (4) bass traps and (14) acoustic panels.  The bass traps are in the corners, and the acoustic panels are behind the speakers, behind the listening position, on the first and second reflection points on the side walls, on and between the first reflection points on the ceiling, and on the ceiling between and slightly forward of the speakers.  

The treatments in my room have made a tremendous improvement in numerous ways.  Bass response is improved.  The soundstage is wider, deeper, and higher than before.  The placement of vocals and instruments is precise.  I can crank the music louder without fatigue, if I desire.  The reflections, echos, resonances, etc., have been reduced.  Additionally, despite my room's smallness, I would experiment with diffusion, but I don't have too much wall space left.  :D

When I initially received my Insight gear, I thought my speakers were deficient (which they were, but for different reasons).  I thought that vocals were "breaking up" because they couldn't reproduce the source (which they couldn't, but not in a "breaking up" way), but the vocal's "cracking" was because of reflections, and a few acoustic panels cured the problem immediately.  I think that if you were to stand a suitable thickness of mineral wool or OC 703, in just two locations at a time for symmetry, in the corners, behind the speakers, behind the listening position, and against the first reflection points on the walls, you would here a enormous difference in the sound with the absorption material at any of these locations.

I don't know how much the cork costs, but mineral wool and/or OC 703 panels are not very expensive.  With your exceptional fabrication skills, you could easily build some very nice flat panel or cylindrical bass traps and flat acoustic panels.  There is a good thread on the acoustic forum that follows Bob in St. Louis' journey.

BTW, Wayner, your system looks great, and the AR table looks fantastic.  

max190

You'd be surprised what bass control in a room does.  Many times, you end up with more, deeper and better bass by dealing with the cancellations. 

Bryan

+1

warnerwh

Wayner: We have the Acoustics forum here.  You can build diy traps and panels for cheap. Here's one site: http://www.angelfire.com/sports/RCcars/acoustic_panels.htm

There's plenty of info on diy treatments.  If you can add acoustic treatment your system will sound so much better it's very surprising. Many of us found out after doing it that it had been something that should have been done years ago. Improving your acoustics can EASILY make as much improvement as a speaker upgrade.

I doubt the cork will have much of an effect. Also panels need to be at least 3"-4" thick, preferably 4".  If they're less then you will only be treating the treble. Bass traps alone can make a serious improvement. Once the bass improves so does everything else because the mids/treble are no longer being submerged in boominess and clouding the whole presentation.  Absorbing the bass in the corners in my mind is an absolute necessity because of the major improvement they make.

Acoustics should be a priority when setting up a new system.




satfrat

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 10855
  • Boston Red Sox!! 2004 / 2007 / 2013
I disagree that it's not doing anything. I can hear a better sound stage. I certainly don't want to kill any bass because the room is bass shy because of the speakers midwall mounting position.



I do need to listen to this a little more.

Wayner

Hey Wayner, I'm willing to believe you're hearing improvements using cork panels if you'll believe my power cord mods make an improvement for me? :o

Oh what the hell,  believe ya anyways. :thumb:

Cheers,
Robin

bmckenney

But, the treatments are a bit spendy....


Compared to gear, treatment isn't that expensive.  I'd say relatively speaking its cheaper than major components, even compared to the components in a typical good value AVA system.  Lets say you have a $1000 preamp, which you do, why wouldn't you also have a $1000 in room treatment?  Think of it as a component of your system and allocate an appropriate budget towards it.  I'm about to get some GIK products myself, and I look at it this way.  I'm betting it makes as good or maybe even more of a difference than spending $1000 on a new Insight preamp.

Bryan

bmckenney

I disagree that it's not doing anything. I can hear a better sound stage. I certainly don't want to kill any bass because the room is bass shy because of the speakers midwall mounting position.



I do need to listen to this a little more.

Wayner

Are those your main speakers right up against the front wall?  I believe you said it was a studio, so maybe those are monitors meant for being placed on the wall like that and you have to do it this way.  Anyway, just curious about those speakers and their placement since we're on the topic of rooms and acoustics.

Bryan

Wayner

Yep, that's they only place in the room where I can put speakers unless I bring the sledge hammer in.

Wayner

sueata1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 103
Wayne,,,
I would damp that Whole wall behind your speakers,,,side to side/top to bottom,,,there is more output  from the Boxes than you realize.  It would really tighten up the imaging/less smear than you think.  I hang nice looking thick rugs that you can get from your local Dollar stores in many shapes and sizes.  The deader ya can make it the more impressed you'll be.

Happy listening,,,Mel

Big Red Machine

Wayner: We have the Acoustics forum here.  You can build diy traps and panels for cheap. Here's one site: http://www.angelfire.com/sports/RCcars/acoustic_panels.htm

There's plenty of info on diy treatments.  If you can add acoustic treatment your system will sound so much better it's very surprising. Many of us found out after doing it that it had been something that should have been done years ago. Improving your acoustics can EASILY make as much improvement as a speaker upgrade.

I doubt the cork will have much of an effect. Also panels need to be at least 3"-4" thick, preferably 4".  If they're less then you will only be treating the treble. Bass traps alone can make a serious improvement. Once the bass improves so does everything else because the mids/treble are no longer being submerged in boominess and clouding the whole presentation.  Absorbing the bass in the corners in my mind is an absolute necessity because of the major improvement they make.

Acoustics should be a priority when setting up a new system.





That's a nice write-up.  When I made mine, I made the opening about an 1/8" smaller on each side so the materials had to be pressed in.  Then I didn't need a backing to it.  I laid the material across the 703 and pushed it into the opening, pulled the material tight and trimmed off the excess along the backside.

When Bryan and Glenn visited, they recommended spacing the panels an inch off the wall so I ripped some 1" pieces for the top and bottom, painted them, attched to the existing frame, and then just rehung them on the nails I used to suspend them on.  The ceiling units have 3" finish nails shot into them with my nailer to keep the OC from dropping out onto the floor.