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Psychicanimal

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« on: 28 Nov 2003, 02:45 pm »
Remember one class A watt equals four class B watts.  If your speakers have enough efficiency, the new Channel Islands class A monoblocks will be impossible to beat in your budget and way beyond.  Period.

http://www.ciaudio.com

Marbles

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« Reply #1 on: 28 Nov 2003, 04:10 pm »
Quote from: Psychicanimal
Remember one class A watt equals four class B watts.  If your speakers have enough efficiency, the new Channel Islands class A monoblocks will be impossible to beat in your budget and way beyond.  Period.

http://www.ciaudio.com


I thought that 1 watt = 1 watt since it's a unit of measurement.

Please expand on this 1= 4 theory.

Also because of crossover distortion, there are very few class "b" amps....most are class A/B

Psychicanimal

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« Reply #2 on: 28 Nov 2003, 05:08 pm »
Quote from: Marbles

I thought that 1 watt = 1 watt since it's a unit of measurement.

It's not as simple as that.

Quote from: Marbles
Please expand on this 1= 4 theory.

It's not a theory--it's a proportion. :nono:

My Marantz Esotec Ma-5 monoblocks are selectable 30W class A or 120 W class B operation.  My Forté 4 is 50W class A and the Forté 6, its class A/ B couterpart is 200W.  That's how it works.  A class A amp has essentially the same power supply as a four times class B amp.  A small class A amp is pretty beffy to start with...and that's one of the reasons they sound more powerful when compared to similar a or A/B amps of the same power rating.


Quote from: Marbles
Also because of crossover distortion, there are very few class "b" amps....most are class A/B


That's not correct.  Class B amps do not cross over--they run at B mode, like my Marantz Esotec's.  Class A/B power amps *do* switch.  Some higher, some lower.  A 'rich' class A/B power amp will stay in class A mode from anywhere from 6-30W before switching to class B, therefore keeping the majority of the music delivered in Class A mode.

It's better, if possible, to try to adapt to scenarios in which one will get by using 30-50W class A amps.  Under most circumstances, they are a more sensible--and much better sounding option--than big A/B beasts.

_scotty_

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« Reply #3 on: 28 Nov 2003, 07:42 pm »
Marbles was refering to crossover notch distortion in his post.  In a class B amplifier this is the transition region between one output device amplifying the positive going aspect of the waveform switching off and the other output device amplifying the negative portion of the waveform switching on.  There is a time  between turn off and turn on in which no amplification is taking place and distortion of the waveform results.  Psychicanimal has correctly described the power supply relationship between reasonably designed class A and class AB power amplifiers.  However the assumption that a class A amp will always have bigger sounding watts is unwarranted.  A slightly underdesigned power supply for the class A amp would shrink it's watts to worse than a class AB design. The size of the watt has more to do with the amplifier circuit design than the presence of a brute force power supply.  The power supply is only a place to start building a good sounding amp,it won't fix a bad sounding amplifier design.  Here is a link  to power amplifier efficiency information.  http://sound.westhost.com/efficiency.htm
Auditioning amplifiers based only on their class of operation is not going to guarantee that you will always hear the best sound for money spent.
In fact their class of operation is immaterial to the end result. If it sounds good, it is good, regardless of the class of operation employed in it's design.

Wayne1

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« Reply #4 on: 28 Nov 2003, 07:58 pm »
From
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/AudioFAQ/part4/

11.18 What is Amplifier Class A? What is Class B? What is Class AB?
   What is Class C? What is Class D?

   All of these terms refer to the operating characteristics
   of the output stages of amplifiers.

   Briefly, Class A amps sound the best, cost the most, and are the
   least practical. They waste power and return very clean signals.
   Class AB amps dominate the market and rival the best Class A
   amps in sound quality. They use less power than Class A,
   and can be cheaper, smaller, cooler, and lighter. Class D amps
   are only used for special applications like bass-guitar amps and
   subwoofer amps. They are even smaller than Class AB amps and
   more efficient, yet are often limited to under 10kHz (less than
   full-range audio). Class B & Class C amps aren't used in audio.
   
   In the following discussion, we will assume transistor output
   stages, with one transistor per function. In some amplifiers,
   the output devices are tubes. Most amps use more than one
   transistor or tube per function in the output stage to increase
   the power.
   
   Class A refers to an output stage with bias current greater than
   the maximum output current, so that all output transistors are
   always conducting current. The biggest advantage of Class A
   is that it is most linear, ie: has the lowest distortion.
   
   The biggest disadvantage of Class A is that it is inefficient,
   ie: it takes a very large Class A amplifier to deliver 50 watts,
   and that amplifier uses lots of electricity and gets very hot.
   
   Some high-end amplifiers are Class A, but true Class A only
   accounts for perhaps 10% of the small high-end market and none
   of the middle or lower-end market.
   
   Class B amps have output stages which have zero idle bias
   current. Typically, a Class B audio amplifier has zero bias
   current in a very small part of the power cycle, to avoid
   nonlinearities. Class B amplifiers have a significant advantage
   over Class A in efficiency because they use almost no
   electricity with small signals.
   
   Class B amplifiers have a major disadvantage: very audible
   distortion with small signals. This distortion can be so bad
   that it is objectionable even with large signals. This
   distortion is called crossover distortion, because it occurs at
   the point when the output stage crosses between sourcing and
   sinking current. There are almost no Class B amplifiers on the
   market today.
   
   Class C amplifiers are similar to Class B in that the output
   stage has zero idle bias current. However, Class C amplifiers
   have a region of zero idle current which is more than 50% of
   the total supply voltage. The disadvantages of Class B
   amplifiers are even more evident in Class C amplifiers, so
   Class C is likewise not practical for audio amps.
   
   Class A amplifiers often consist of a driven transistor
   connected from output to positive power supply and a constant
   current transistor connected from output to negative power
   supply. The signal to the driven transistor modulates the
   output voltage and the output current. With no input signal,
   the constant bias current flows directly from the positive
   supply to the negative supply, resulting in no output current,
   yet lots of power consumed. More sophisticated Class A amps
   have both transistors driven (in a push-pull fashion).
   
   Class B amplifiers consist of a driven transistor connected
   from output to positive power supply and another driven
   transistor connected from output to negative power supply.
   The signal drives one transistor on while the other is off,
   so in a Class B amp, no power is wasted going from the
   positive supply straight to the negative supply.
   
   Class AB amplifiers are almost the same as Class B amplifiers
   in that they have two driven transistors. However, Class
   AB amplifiers differ from Class B amplifiers in that they
   have a small idle current flowing from positive supply to
   negative supply even when there is no input signal. This idle
   current slightly increases power consumption, but does not
   increase it anywhere near as much as Class A. This idle current
   also corrects almost all of the nonlinearity associated with
   crossover distortion. These amplifiers are called Class AB
   rather than Class A because with large signals, they behave like
   Class B amplifiers, but with small signals, they behave like
   Class A amplifiers. Most amplifiers on the market are Class AB.  
   
   Some good amplifiers today use variations on the above themes.
   For example, some "Class A" amplifiers have both transistors
   driven, yet also have both transistors always on. A specific
   example of this kind of amplifier is the "Stasis" (TM) amplifier
   topology promoted by Threshold, and used in a few different
   high-end amplifiers. Stasis (TM) amplifiers are indeed
   Class A, but are not the same as a classic Class A amplifier.
   
   Class D amplifiers use pulse modulation techniques to achieve
   even higher efficiency than Class B amplifiers. As Class B
   amplifiers used linear regulating transistors to modulate output
   current and voltage, they could never be more efficient than
   71%. Class D amplifiers use transistors that are either on or
   off, and almost never in-between, so they waste the least amount
   of power.
   
   Obviously, then, Class D amplifiers are more efficient than
   Class A, Class AB, or Class B. Some Class D amplifiers have
   >80% efficiency at full power. Class D amplifiers can also have
   low distortion, although not as good as Class AB or Class A.
   
   Class D amplifiers are great for efficiency. However they are
   awful for other reasons. It is essential that any Class D amp
   be followed by a passive low-pass filter to remove switching
   noise. This filter adds phase shift and distortion.  It also
   limits the high frequency performance of the amplifier, such
   that Class D amplifiers rarely have good treble. The best
   application today for Class D amplifiers is subwoofers.
   
   To make a very good full range Class D amplifier, the switching
   frequency must be well above 40kHz. Also, the amplifier must be
   followed by a very good low-pass filter that will remove all of
   the switching noise without causing power loss, phase-shift, or
   distortion. Unfortunately, high switching frequency also means
   significant switching power dissipation. It also means that the
   chances of radiated noise (which might get into a tuner or phono
   cartridge) is much higher.

   Some people refer to Class E, G, and H. These are not as well
   standardized as class A and B.  However, Class E refers to an
   amplifier with pulsed inputs and a tuned circuit output.  This
   is commonly used in radio transmitters where the output is at
   a single or narrow band of frequencies.  Class E is not used
   for audio.

   Class G refers to "rail switched" amplifiers which have two
   different power supply voltages.  The supply to the amplifier
   is connected to the lower voltage for soft signals and the
   higher voltage for loud signals.  This gives more efficiency
   without requiring switching output stages, so can sound better
   than Class D amplifiers.

   Class H refers to using a Class D or switching power supply
   to drive the rails of a class AB or class A amplifier, so that
   the amplifier has excellent efficiency yet has the sound of a
   good class AB amplifier.  Class H is very common in professional
   audio power amplifiers.

ABEX

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« Reply #5 on: 28 Nov 2003, 09:39 pm »
How much of a headway have Class D amps made today?

How good are they compared to the other amp Classes seeing that there is a big move going on now for use in cheap Receivers and more expensive gear? $300-$4000 is the going rate for these things and they will only come down in price once they become more mainstream.

They use to be only good for Subs,but the push now is for them to take a bigger place in home Audio. What makes them different now?

Just wondering! :wink:

Psychicanimal

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« Reply #6 on: 29 Nov 2003, 02:43 am »
Quote from: jacknife
Quote
you are probably getting confused with all the choices being offered


Any thoughts comparing the AVA Omegastar and Fet Valve would be helpfull.  With the Omegastar 240 at $900 and the Fet Valve 350EX at $1800, is the Fet Valve worth stepping up to?


I heard them both at the Van Alstine show in Chicago Audio Society a couple years ago--and went for the Forté 4 class A amp.   Better performance and sonics, with a more natural presentation.  VA's hybrid is a good amp, nonetheless.  I wasn't bullshitting when I told you you're not going to find anything current production that will outclass the Channel Islands class A monoblocks unless you desire to drive some nasty loads.  I own the classic from the 80's (Marantz Esotec's), 90's ( Forté ) and now Dusty is going to send me a pair of his babies to compare them three classics in a properly set-up rig, with three of his preamps.

Pez

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« Reply #7 on: 4 Dec 2003, 04:52 am »
I have split this topic from what was placed in fight club.  I feel that this is good discussion, albeit a little heated. If I misplaced this topic please place it in the appropriate forum.  I think it is extremely important to split topics where they break down into personal attacks.  The above is not slanderous in anyway and is actually very interesting discussion.

lonewolfny42

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« Reply #8 on: 4 Dec 2003, 07:29 am »
So the juicy stuff is in the Fight Club !  Oh, that Pez ! :lol:

audiojerry

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« Reply #9 on: 4 Dec 2003, 05:14 pm »
Quote
Auditioning amplifiers based only on their class of operation is not going to guarantee that you will always hear the best sound for money spent.
In fact their class of operation is immaterial to the end result. If it sounds good, it is good, regardless of the class of operation employed in it's design
.
Well said, Scotty.
Can you offer some instruction on some additional questions? Even though I've read it before, I keep forgetting:  :oops:

Can both class A and A/B operate in push-pull mode?
Does single-ended mean no push-pull, and is it exclusive to class A?
Is negative feedback allowed in class A?
It seems like for class A, I usually see single-ended, triode, zero feedback.

KevinW

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« Reply #10 on: 4 Dec 2003, 06:00 pm »
Quote from: ABEX
How much of a headway have Class D amps made today?

How good are they compared to the other amp Classes seeing that there is a big move going on now for use in cheap Receivers and more expensive gear? $300-$4000 is the going rate for these things and they will only come down in price once they become more mainstream.

They use to be only good for Subs,but the push now is for them to take a bigger place in home Audio. What makes them different now?

Just wondering! :wink:


Did somebody mention "Class D"???  :) :)

Based on my experience with the Fusion amplifier, there is no doubt that class D is now on equal level with the best conventional analog amplifier designs.  Wayne's criticisms are now outdated.  

One key reason why Class D now sounds so good is that designers have figured out how to push the switching frequency much higher than before.  My amp switches at 500 kHz, and 750 kHz with the clock upgrade.  Intermodulation Distortion from this frequency is negligible, as it is more than 20 times the highest audible frequency.

Class D amps are nearly free of harmonic distortion in the audio pass band, which is something that no analaog amplifier (SS or tubes) can ever achieve. This is not necessarily an inherent limitation in analog amps (SET lovers raise your hand), but it does mean that the sonic signature of Class D amp is unique.  Most people find that the midrange sounds quite seductive.

Of course some other benefits of Class D, such as high power with virtually no heat and little electricity consumption, leave conventional Class A amps eating dust. ;)

audiojerry

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« Reply #11 on: 4 Dec 2003, 07:09 pm »
always good to get an impartial viewpoint  :P

JoshK

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« Reply #12 on: 4 Dec 2003, 08:58 pm »
Jerry, did you recently quit your meds?  :lol:  You've been quite the provocator lately.

nathanm

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« Reply #13 on: 4 Dec 2003, 09:09 pm »
A particularly un-audiojerry-like comment.  I am proud of you! :thumb:

I dunno what class my QSC amps are (I think its D) but they certainly improved upon Class A SET in my trials.  I didn't notice the midrange seducing me as much as the bass, which actually showed up for the gig instead of faxing in a picture.  The treble tried to seduce me but I didn't fall for it this time.  The bass and midrange are such gossipers that they would find out I had an affair with the treble in no time.  Overall, 104.575Hz was by far the most seductive frequency of all.  I had not heard 104.575Hz with such beauty before.

Quote
My amp switches at 500 kHz, and 750 kHz with the clock upgrade. Intermodulation Distortion from this frequency is negligible, as it is more than 20 times the highest audible frequency.


Yes, but what if you're like me and have...you know, a very revealing system with smooth broadband response out to 900KHz?

audiojerry

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« Reply #14 on: 4 Dec 2003, 09:18 pm »
things have been kind of dull around here, and I've got too much time on my hands - maybe I should put my hands to other uses ...... :idea:  ......   :roll: ......     :oops:

jackman

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« Reply #15 on: 4 Dec 2003, 09:32 pm »
What's with you guys getting "seduced" by your speakers?  Hopefully, those things aren't rear ported?  Yow!   :?

Audiojerry, I hope I haven't been a bad influence on you!  You have shown a hostile side that I didn't know existed.  It's cool watching people fight once in a while...expecially when I'm NOT one of them!

J

ABEX

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« Reply #16 on: 4 Dec 2003, 09:41 pm »
Thx,Kevin for the description of Class D amps.

KevinW

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« Reply #17 on: 4 Dec 2003, 09:44 pm »
Please don't anyone try to fool themselves. When listening to music, seduction should start and stop with the mind  :lol:

DVV

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« Reply #18 on: 4 Dec 2003, 09:46 pm »
Quote from: nathanm
...
Yes, but what if you're like me and have...you know, a very revealing system with smooth broadband response out to 900KHz?


With a hearing limited to 20 kHz, but an intellect hitting 2 terahertz? :mrgreen:

Sorry Nate, I just couldn't resist it, and at 50, one tends to indulge oneself every now and then. :lol: I refer to 2 terahertz, it's probably just half that (remember - mega, giga, tera?)

Cheers,
DVV

Tyson

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« Reply #19 on: 4 Dec 2003, 09:47 pm »
Of course speakers are rear ported, how the hell else could you try to mount them?