[Sonny]

Anyone have any experience with this and can help?
I've tried everything and it is still not what I would expect from it.

I could just be my expectations???

[mtodde]

I used the Shelter 501 on my Aries 3 with phenomenol results...you really need a mirrored alignment jig to dial it in.  Hopefully someone local will be able to assist you...

[Sonny]

I used the Shelter 501 on my Aries 3 with phenomenol results...you really need a mirrored alignment jig to dial it in.  Hopefully someone local will be able to assist you...

Thanks, that might be the case...
did you use the VPI supplied jig?  Do you have anti-skating on yours?
What set up did you use? and what arm?
T

[TheChairGuy]

Anyone have any experience with this and can help?
I've tried everything and it is still not what I would expect from it.

I could just be my expectations???

Is the Shelter broken in, Tuan?

25 hours minimum for most cartridges.....the better the diamond, the longer the wear-in, too.

10" arms sound less dynamic than 9" ones if that's what you're used to, as well.

John

[Sonny]

Anyone have any experience with this and can help?
I've tried everything and it is still not what I would expect from it.

I could just be my expectations???

Is the Shelter broken in, Tuan?

25 hours minimum for most cartridges.....the better the diamond, the longer the wear-in, too.

10" arms sound less dynamic than 9" ones if that's what you're used to, as well.

John

John, no, the shelter is broken in, it was on my scout table and now I have an older TNT 3.5.
I find that the difference is the new table combo has more of everything, details, speak, quiet background, and dynamics..it just also have more sibilances, more details means more imperfections are coming through that I didn't here before, so, that may be the issue as well, but I just thouht it was going to blow the scout!

[TheChairGuy]

Hmmm....could be due to upgrade in table that you're hearing some 'etch/sibilance' or something

I've never heard a reviewer mention that any Shelter has sibilance, but do you have another cartridge to see if that changes this occurence?  Personally, I have yet to find any cartridge that fully satisfies (I assume there is none that do.... ) but there is some 'etch' in every moving coil tried.

However, at 46 now, I am finding myself more forgiving of them.....which means I am either mellowing (doesn't seem like it) or my hearing is getting worse (more likely).  As you are several years younger than me and have an even more resolving TT than I do, you might be hearing the imperfections of moving coils more acutely than I ever did.

You might want to buy a cheap Audio Technica or Grado moving magnet and see if the particular type of 'sibilance' goes away.

I find MM's a good diagnostic tool to have around, at the very least - they seem to point to some 'honesty' issues inherent in moving coils I have and heard.

Just a thought....John 

[Sonny]

Thanks John,

You know, i do have another cartridge, an Audio Technica ATG33 or so, but I don't want to take the shelter off as it's pretty darn good right now, everything but the sibilance... Especially on Karrin Allyson's Blue.  If anyone has that LP, could you play it and see if on cut two, that there is extra sibilance coming from the right channel.

Also, here's a question, know that the right channel groove is the outside groove, would having too much anti-skating make it more than the left as the anti-skating would tend to push the arm "outward"?

Anyways, thanks for everyone's feedback and advice...

Tuan

[Carl V]

Anyone have any experience with this and can help?
I've tried everything and it is still not what I would expect from it.

I could just be my expectations???

Is the Shelter broken in, Tuan?

25 hours minimum for most cartridges.....the better the diamond, the longer the wear-in, too.

10" arms sound less dynamic than 9" ones if that's what you're used to, as well.

John

I'm curious about the 10" vs 9" comment  I have a VPI 10.5 and the old original 9.0.
Swaping them out is fast & convenient.  Altho I do this for Stereo & Mono reasons.
So I'm unable to do an apples to apples comparison test.  Should we expect similar
results with the 12" arm.  Is this a 'general' observation you've experienced?

[TheChairGuy]

Does the JMW-10 have mechanical anti-skate or twisted wire?

Either way, you can diddle around with anti-skate levels to see  

I find modern arms, with low tolerance machined bearings, tend to work with approx. 2/3 of the stated downforce (some older arms sometimes needed more than the stated downforce).  So, if your Shelter is 2.0 grams VTF...then I'd try the anti-skate at about 1.3-1.4 and see how that goes.

With as high a resolution as you now have...you might be hearing every last drop of sonics (in the groove and throughout your playback chain).

Carl V - I just saw your post.  The 10-10.5" arms are generally thought of as a compromise to the better dynamics of the 9" arms, and the smoother presentation and better tracking of the 12" arms (I have not owned a 12" arm to know this personally, however)

Longer arms have better tracking abilities...at the expense of rigidity (all other matters being equal).  It's 25% longer distance for a 12" arm to the arm pillar as with 9" arms...where all the weight of the arm is supported for playback.

I suspect 8" would be that much more dynamic (some DJ arms are this short), but they probably track very poorly because of it.

Ciao, John

[Sonny]

[/quote]
I'm curious about the 10" vs 9" comment  I have a VPI 10.5 and the old original 9.0.
Swaping them out is fast & convenient.  Altho I do this for Stereo & Mono reasons.
So I'm unable to do an apples to apples comparison test.  Should we expect similar
results with the 12" arm.  Is this a 'general' observation you've experienced?
[/quote]

Carl,
was wondering if swamping out the 10.5 and 9 arms are not the right thing to do as the effective length of the arms are different and depending the distance from the pivot to the spindle, I would assume around 250mm since you have the 10.5 arm, would make a huge difference on the 9 arm, I would think.

T

[Sonny]

Does the JMW-10 have mechanical anti-skate or twisted wire?

Either way, you can diddle around with anti-skate levels to see  

I find modern arms, with low tolerance machined bearings, tend to work with approx. 2/3 of the stated downforce (some older arms sometimes needed more than the stated downforce).  So, if your Shelter is 2.0 grams VTF...then I'd try the anti-skate at about 1.3-1.4 and see how that goes.

With as high a resolution as you now have...you might be hearing every last drop of sonics (in the groove and throughout your playback chain).


Ciao, John

John,

Thanks for the suggestion,
I've tried playing with it, the twisting of the wires, and it does make a huge difference.
I know that most anit-skating's say to put the tonearm on a grooveless record and play it.  if the arm stays in place with out moving inward or outward then anti-skating is set properly.  i've tried that on the jmw 10 arm by twisting and it does work, however, i find that setting anti-skating this way sounds compressed and lacks details and body.  However, if I set anti-skating as directed by VPI, that is to have the arm weightless and if the arm tend to push outward slight as you lower it, then that is correct anti-skating, according to VPI.  This, I find to be the best setting so far.

has anyone else any thoughts on this?

Thanks

[Sonny]

here are some image of set up.

[GBB]

I've tried playing with it, the twisting of the wires, and it does make a huge difference.

I know that most anit-skating's say to put the tonearm on a grooveless record and play it . . . however, i find that setting anti-skating this way sounds compressed and lacks details and body.

has anyone else any thoughts on this?

Thanks

Sonny,
My tonearm suggests the blank record method but also has the following suggestion:

" . . . it is possible to look at the cantilever from the front and see if it is centered in the groove.  Start by looking at the cantilevers location in the front pole piece with the arm cued above the record.  See if it stays centered when the stylus is lowered into the groove.  Adjust the weights accordingly if it pulls to the left or right."

The other thought that popped into my head is whether you have played with the resistive load for the cartridge.  My experience is that changing the resistance can help tame the last bit of sibilance once you've got the rest of the set up nailed.

---Gary

[Sonny]

Gary, thanks for the suggestions...
I'll look at the stylus/canteleever when I get a good magnifying glass...
When you talk about resistance on the phono stage, i don't really know how to do that, do you?
Thanks

[GBB]

When you talk about resistance on the phono stage, i don't really know how to do that, do you?

Yes, I do.  Can you remind what type of phono stage you are using?  Does it take the MC cartridge directly or do you use some sort of step up transformer?

A typical MM phono stage will have a 47K ohm input resistance.  For MC cartridges, the loading really needs to be tweaked.  According to the published specs for the 501 II, it likes to see a 100 ohm load when driving a high gain stage directly and it likes to see 20 ohms when driving a step up transformer. 
My experience is that the exact value is best determined experimentally.  If the resistance is too high then the sound can be a bit harsh and sibilant.  If the value is too low then the sound gets a bit dark and rolled off.

If your phono stages doesn't allow loading then one quick experiment is to buy some RCA Y-adapters that have 1 RCA male plug on one end and 2 RCA female jacks on the other end.  Then you make up some RCA plugs with different resistors in them, for example 20 ohms, 100 ohms, 200 ohms, etc.  Plug the cable from the turntable into one of the RCA jacks and use the other jack for the different loading plugs.  You can then experiment on the effect this has on the sound.  The jacks degrade the sound a bit so once you've found a resistance value that you like then you are better off soldering this directly into the phono preamp.

---Gary