Everyones Ears Are Different!

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timind

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #20 on: 23 Nov 2008, 09:43 pm »
I have to confess I rarely go to live events and when I do they are usually loud and not audiophile quality so a "live event" is not what I'm shooting for in my system. What I'm after is a look into the artists (producers) intention.

vegasdave

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #21 on: 23 Nov 2008, 10:25 pm »
Agreed, recorded music is by nature artificial.  The best we can hope to do is to create a compelling, involving musical event at home.  It might not ever be exactly the same as the live event, but it can still be great, nonetheless. 


This is true, and with the Bryston gear, we get great results  :D

Sasha

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #22 on: 23 Nov 2008, 11:17 pm »
I have to confess I rarely go to live events and when I do they are usually loud and not audiophile quality so a "live event" is not what I'm shooting for in my system. What I'm after is a look into the artists (producers) intention.
How can live event be loud and "not audiophile"?
Live means not amplified.
I have never heard an orchestra, big or small, close or distand, to be too loud, or not beeing pleasing?




Tyson

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #23 on: 23 Nov 2008, 11:28 pm »
Vegasdave,
Agreed!  I used to own a 3b-ST and Bryston gear is solid, solid, solid.  Very little coloration and great dynamics.  If I owned it now I'd probably never sell it.  But, audiophilia is a process and I sold my 3b-st a long time ago....

laserman

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #24 on: 24 Nov 2008, 12:08 am »
Here’s an observation you might find interesting about a reviewer’s comments involving three highly priced and regarded speakers.  “Each of these speakers has a distinctive characteristic that both sets it apart from the crowd and is obvious enough to polarize listeners.  The very trait one person may highly value, causing big grins or even necessitating a mandatory purchase, another may consider a total turn-off.  For example, the Speaker A throws luscious, intimate images and is somewhat lenient with inferior source material.  Some people may consider Speaker A a little too mellow.  On the opposite side of the spectrum, Speaker B can be intensely dynamic and incisive, and that might be too much of a good thing.  Speaker C is amazingly quick and clean, but some may think it comes across as aloof or cool.  Rather than buy first and try later, I would suggest a thorough audition to decide if their sonic priorities align with yours.”  Based on those comments, how is one to determine the most “accurate sounding system” to a live musical performance?

timind

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #25 on: 24 Nov 2008, 12:23 am »
I have to confess I rarely go to live events and when I do they are usually loud and not audiophile quality so a "live event" is not what I'm shooting for in my system. What I'm after is a look into the artists (producers) intention.
How can live event be loud and "not audiophile"?
Live means not amplified.
I have never heard an orchestra, big or small, close or distand, to be too loud, or not beeing pleasing?




Well I was going to put a sentence in there stating I don't listen to much classical music. Live events means loud amplified concerts where the spectacle is the event as much as the music. Even small clubs where you can't have a converstion with the person next to you without shouting.

TONEPUB

Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #26 on: 24 Nov 2008, 12:41 am »
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the input. I realize I am speaking in hypothetical’s here because no speaker or system is perfect and I will exaggerate to make a point but...

Let’s assume that your hearing is dead flat at 10K as you suggest above and mine is 3dB down at 10K.
We both listen to a live singer in a room and record her voice. Then we listen to that voice recording on a playback audio system that is also dead flat at 10K. 

Would we not both agree (even though our hearing is different) that the dead flat audio system was in fact more accurate?  Conversely if the audio system had a 3dB dip at 10K then it would sound dull to both of use because it would be down 3dB from our personal reference point based on the live voice experience?  Down 3dB for you because your hearing is dead flat at 10K and down 3dB for me as well (for me a total of 6dB from flat because my hearing is already down 3dB at 10K)?


I think that would be true, but it's much more complicated than that.  Frequency response is not everything...

James Tanner

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #27 on: 24 Nov 2008, 12:46 am »
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the input. I realize I am speaking in hypothetical’s here because no speaker or system is perfect and I will exaggerate to make a point but...

Let’s assume that your hearing is dead flat at 10K as you suggest above and mine is 3dB down at 10K.
We both listen to a live singer in a room and record her voice. Then we listen to that voice recording on a playback audio system that is also dead flat at 10K. 

Would we not both agree (even though our hearing is different) that the dead flat audio system was in fact more accurate?  Conversely if the audio system had a 3dB dip at 10K then it would sound dull to both of use because it would be down 3dB from our personal reference point based on the live voice experience?  Down 3dB for you because your hearing is dead flat at 10K and down 3dB for me as well (for me a total of 6dB from flat because my hearing is already down 3dB at 10K)?


I think that would be true, but it's much more complicated than that.  Frequency response is not everything...

I realize frequency response is not everything I was trying to focus the discussion on one aspect so we could agree or disagree on what is common, or not to us all.

james

James Tanner

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #28 on: 24 Nov 2008, 12:58 am »
OK change of course: Maybe we could compare it to watching a football game.

Lets say the 3 of us are at the stadium watching our favorite football team. The colour of the sweaters are purple, black and grey. 

We go to a Future Shop on the way home and there are 3 TV's on display showing hightlights of the game we were just at.  Would we all agree that one of the TV's had better rendition of the purple, black and grey ...... even if my perception of purple was slightly different then yours due to my particular eyesights colour capabilities?

james

Tyson

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #29 on: 24 Nov 2008, 01:44 am »
Hehe, go over to the videophile forum at avscience and there's massive arguments around vision and reproductions of video.  The fact is that audio is more ephemeral than video, and thus even more difficult to nail down to any sort of objective standard, particularly if end user preferences are taken into account.

James Tanner

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #30 on: 24 Nov 2008, 01:46 am »
Hehe, go over to the videophile forum at avscience and there's massive arguments around vision and reproductions of video.  The fact is that audio is more ephemeral than video, and thus even more difficult to nail down to any sort of objective standard, particularly if end user preferences are taken into account.

Hi Tyson,

Gee I was afraid of that!

james

Tyson

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #31 on: 24 Nov 2008, 01:53 am »
Not only that, but preferences change.  To continue or video example (again, assuming there is no perfect reproduction of video currently), I used to prefer to sacrifice a bit of brightness in order to have better black levels (a common tradeoff), but now I find that I prefer a brighter picture with less dense black levels.  So goes the nature of end user preferences.....

TONEPUB

Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #32 on: 24 Nov 2008, 03:20 am »
OK change of course: Maybe we could compare it to watching a football game.

Lets say the 3 of us are at the stadium watching our favorite football team. The colour of the sweaters are purple, black and grey. 

We go to a Future Shop on the way home and there are 3 TV's on display showing hightlights of the game we were just at.  Would we all agree that one of the TV's had better rendition of the purple, black and grey ...... even if my perception of purple was slightly different then yours due to my particular eyesights colour capabilities?

james

Nope, that's a much worse comparison because people don't perceive color the same.  And you are dealing
with reflective color vs. transmitted color (ie. the color you see on the sweater is made up of light bouncing
off of it and the TV screen is passing light through it to create the color)  The backlit image will always appear
more rich, no matter what.  It's like comparing prints to transparencies on a light box.

While I can understand the quest for accuracy as a great place to start, it's still going to come down to user
preferences in the end.  The people that like your gear (or anyone elses for that matter) will buy the presentation
they enjoy the best.

I can live with that..

Mag

Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #33 on: 24 Nov 2008, 03:40 am »
OK change of course: Maybe we could compare it to watching a football game.

Lets say the 3 of us are at the stadium watching our favorite football team. The colour of the sweaters are purple, black and grey. 

We go to a Future Shop on the way home and there are 3 TV's on display showing hightlights of the game we were just at.  Would we all agree that one of the TV's had better rendition of the purple, black and grey ...... even if my perception of purple was slightly different then yours due to my particular eyesights colour capabilities?

james


TV is a much better example for me as I actually gave it some thought. I used to stand in front of a wall of different TVs when I worked at a casino. TVs were used for simulcast horse racing.

Having seen the reference we probably could agree on which TV was the closest to the actual event. It is the small 8" screen. Not having seen the actual event, we have variations on how green the field should be, or we may agree on the color of the field but have different opinions on the hues of the colored teams jerseys. And thus we can't agree on which TV has the right settings.

Even though the 8" screen is the most accurate. People then have variations on which TV they prefer to watch.  Some will watch the small screen as accuracy in color is more important. Some will pick the TV with the best resolution. Some will watch the big screen because the big screen gives a more convincing feeling of being there. If a big screen met all our requirements then the majority of the people would probably watch the big screen. However the big screen may not be appropriate in the lounge were a smaller accurate resolution screen is preferable.

What all the TVs do regardless of size or picture accuracy is convey the information of what is happening.

We can apply TV preferences to stereo but instead of vision its sound.


James Tanner

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #34 on: 24 Nov 2008, 12:24 pm »
Good one Mag.

james

James Tanner

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #35 on: 24 Nov 2008, 02:49 pm »
I have to confess I rarely go to live events and when I do they are usually loud and not audiophile quality so a "live event" is not what I'm shooting for in my system. What I'm after is a look into the artists (producers) intention.


Hi Timind,

On your point of accuracy vs preference (or as you say the producers/artists intent) one of the issues that always comes up in discussions in recording studios is whether the recording being produced should be as accurate as possible or have a ‘sonic voicing’ based on what the ‘intent’ of the recording engineer or artist wants.

I remember my first experience with this was many years ago doing a recording in a studio in Toronto with Lorne Lofsky, an incredibly good Jazz guitarist. He came to the recording session with his guitar of course but he also dragged along this old beat up box with and amplifier and speaker in it.  His instructions to the recording engineer was ‘please do not put the microphone on my guitar.  Place the microphone in front of the  speaker/amp box please.’

Reason: he loved the sound of his guitar through his personal speaker/amp rig.

So here we have an example where the accurate sound of the guitar through the speaker/amp box was very important to the artist.  So the job of the recording engineer was to try and capture this particular sound as close as possible while the intent of the artist was to produce a specific sound he found pleasing.

james
« Last Edit: 25 Nov 2008, 08:33 pm by James Tanner »

Tosko

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #36 on: 4 Dec 2008, 09:17 pm »
Hi All,

"Everyones ears are different" - I hear (no pun intended) this all the time and I thought it might make a great topic for discussion.

Lets say 3 of us go to listen to an unamplified trio with a set of drums, a saxophone and a piano. We then go to each persons home and listen to a CD of that very same recording on each of our own audio systems. Would there be a consensus among the 3 of us as to which system sounded the closest to the original live recording we just heard?

Is it not really more a matter of 'we all have different preferences' rather than 'everyones ears are different'?

james

The Ear as a Judge of Fidelity.
It is common practice to regard the ear as the final judge of fidelity, but this can only give a true judgment when the listener has acute hearing, a keen ear for distortion, and is not in the habit of listening to distorted music. A listener whit a keen ear for distortion can only cultivate this faculty by making frequent direct comparisons whit the original music in the concert hall.
H.A.Hartley (July 1944)

Lancelot

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Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #37 on: 4 Dec 2008, 09:56 pm »
A number of years ago I read something by Scott Frankland ( audio manufacturer at that time, maybe still is? ) who, I thought, made an interesting comment on an issue similar to this.

He said," Every playback system is ( or ought to be ) a statement of the owner"s sensibility to sound and music and that strict accuracy is, at present, not only impossible to obtain, but impossible to verify.
The upshot is that we ought to pursue accuracy to the extent that it does not clash with our inner sensibility."

So a musically satisfying system is partly the components and partly you. Until you have a handle on your own *sensibilities* , you are only dealing with one part of the equation.

1oldguy

Re: Everyones Ears Are Different!
« Reply #38 on: 18 Jun 2009, 11:36 am »
Interesting thread.

As for video I too have found that I would rather loose a little black level for detail I found missing.One of the reasons I let go my Pioneer Kuro.

  As for my previous stereo system which was great for what it was and gave me great pleasure as a teenager and into my 20's, but I couldn't listen to it anymore because of the sibilance that I was unaware of till recently.My Brother has owned the system now for years and wasn't kind to the gear so that may have loads to do with it's performance.
   Where I live I have to buy before I try so building a system this time with the help of the internet has been invaluable.To be honest I can't afford "Upgrades" and the gear I have now and the remaining gear I need is and will be my last.So to say I have a preference through experience would not be accurate,I do however follow my gut instinct about what I like, at least in "Theory" how I prefer my "Sound" to be.I also took the time to listen to the meager systems I had access to and so by doing that I knew what I didn't Like "Sound wise" building this new and last system.
   Also through much careful digging around on the internet and forms and sometimes reading 'Between the lines" is why I went with Bryston and B&W.For better or for worse this is the path I have ventured.