[Images]

On the 4th of this month Mike posted that the Force XL in satin black is running low on stock.  This may settle the question I have, just based on availability.  My question was recently posted in Audio Central, but I think it might prompt more response here.  OK, the Rythmik a is servo sub with a 12 inch driver, while the ACI Force XL uses a 10 inch cone.  They are of a similar price point.  Has any one compared these two subs?  If so, I would appreciate hearing your opinion.  In this forum I would expect a bias in favor of the ACI product, which is fine.  I think I have the same bias.  I'm just the type that needs to do some comparison shopping. 

In fact, you can compare the Force to any competitive product you want to name.  I guess that really is the question; at the price point of the Force XL is there even a competitive product?  My mains are Bamberg 4.5s driven by CI Audio D100s.  Phillip Bamberg originally advised against trying to pair these MTM monitors using SS 8545k drivers with a sub.  He said of this design "The BESL Series 4.5k is intended for moderate size rooms fed by class-A-biased amplification, and bi-wired with high-grade cables. It has that "immediate" sound that makes you forget about your hardware. The BESL Series 4.5k sounds best without a subwoofer."  I should mention that this Bamberg design is about 10 years old.  The subwoofer craft has advanced greatly since these were built. BTW, I listen almost exclusively to Classical orchestral music. 

[Joe_K]

I haven't compared those subs. I would try the Force, you'll wonder how you lived w/o it! ACI subs integrate so well with the mains, plus filling in the bottom and the greater sense of dynamics, I'm sure you're aware of the advantages of a sub. Go for it! You'll be glad you did.
ACI is tough to beat. 
Let us know what you decide.

Joe

P.S. I have heard REL and Dynaudio subs, I prefer ACI.

[satfrat]

You never mentioned the size of your room and I'd think that would be a major consideration between going with a 10" or 12" subwoofer. For example, my room is only 11' x 17' and I've only owned 10" subs, 4 to date. Of the 4, the Force XL is the best I've owned when compared to Cerwin Vega and Velodyne. A 12" sub in my room would kill the music but I wouldn't mind adding a second Force XL.

Cheers,
Robin

[Images]

The living room is 18 by 25, which is counting a glassed-in porch area off to one side.  I suspect that stereo Force XLs is probably where I want to end up.  The specs and reviews certainly suggest that this product is a worthwhile investment.  I have the impression that of all the "affordable" subwoofers available, this one is probably the most configurable and the most likely to succesfully marry with the mains.  The Rythmic option is just that, though this design does have a DIY approach that can be sourced from Rythmic and GR Research.   

[denjo]

ACI is tough to beat... I have heard REL ... I prefer ACI.

I would second the quoted view. I have also tried the REL Strata but much prefer teh ACI Force XL. The ACI cherry finish also makes the Force XL an acceptable piec of furniture instead of the REL's drab, black. Just don't use it as a coffee table!   

Best Regards
Dennis

[NewBuyer]

Images, are you talking about the new Rythmik direct-servo subs at Ascend Acoustics?  I have a Force XL that I really enjoy, and I would also like to try one of those new Ascend Acoustics Rythmik subs as well - if I get a chance to do this soon, I will post back with a comparison for you...

[Mike Dzurko]

Thanks folks for the input.

Images, I think if Phil heard the Force XL, he'd revise to "only use with the appropriate quality sub(s) like the Force XL. "

On a practical note, yes we are really low on Satin Black cabinets. We're at that inventory point where we might have stock for two weeks or they might all be gone tomorrow. No more on the way for quite a few months right now.

We do have an excellent stock of the Piano Black. I'd be happy to give you a quote on stereo pair of your choice, just PM me. Thanks!

[Images]

NewBuer, the Rythmik sub I am referring to is not sourced from Ascend Acoustics (but I now realized that this is where you purchase the sub.)  The F12G is from Rythmik Audio.  They only do subs, if I am not mistaken.  There are three 12 inchers and two 15 inchers available.  I believe they all are of servo design, which necessitates using the appropriate amp.  They do have one piano black 12 incher that looks exactly like what you pointed to at Ascend Acoustics.... and now I realize that Ascend Acoustics distributes their subs.  So, you do end up ordering from Ascend.  What interests me is a DIY collaboration they do with Danny at GR Research.  Basically, the amp comes from them and the driver from Danny.  You then end up building your own cabinet.  The F12G can  be seen here http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G.html. BUT, this is also supposed to be available for purchase as a completed sub.  When I try to find this model at Ascend Acoustics, no luck.  Then, to confuse the issue, there is another page on the Rythmik site that says the five subs pictured on that page, including the F12G, are available for online purchase and available from Ascend. 

So I am not sure about ordering, and the point here is not how to order, but what to order.  ACI has a remarkably good and long track record.  I guess it comes down to this: I know I can't go wrong with the Force XL.  (I had previously read some owners preferred the Force XL over the comparable REL.)  The other product is less established, and therefore more of a gamble.  NOW, if only the Force XL were availabel in CHERRY --- that could be 6 months away.  All I would have to do would be show that to my wife, and no questions would be asked!  Satin Black is definitely a second choice, and as far as the piano black goes, she'd have big time decor problems with that (which means I would have big time problem... ya know, if mama ain't happy...etc.)

[satfrat]

NewBuer, the Rythmik sub I am referring to is not sourced from Ascend Acoustics (but I now realized that this is where you purchase the sub.)  The F12G is from Rythmik Audio.  They only do subs, if I am not mistaken.  There are three 12 inchers and two 15 inchers available.  I believe they all are of servo design, which necessitates using the appropriate amp.  They do have one piano black 12 incher that looks exactly like what you pointed to at Ascend Acoustics.... and now I realize that Ascend Acoustics distributes their subs.  So, you do end up ordering from Ascend.  What interests me is a DIY collaboration they do with Danny at GR Research.  Basically, the amp comes from them and the driver from Danny.  You then end up building your own cabinet.  The F12G can  be seen here http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G.html. BUT, this is also supposed to be available for purchase as a completed sub.  When I try to find this model at Ascend Acoustics, no luck.  Then, to confuse the issue, there is another page on the Rythmik site that says the five subs pictured on that page, including the F12G, are available for online purchase and available from Ascend. 

So I am not sure about ordering, and the point here is not how to order, but what to order.  ACI has a remarkably good and long track record.  I guess it comes down to this: I know I can't go wrong with the Force XL.  (I had previously read some owners preferred the Force XL over the comparable REL.)  The other product is less established, and therefore more of a gamble.  NOW, if only the Force XL were availabel in CHERRY --- that could be 6 months away.  All I would have to do would be show that to my wife, and no questions would be asked!  Satin Black is definitely a second choice, and as far as the piano black goes, she'd have big time decor problems with that (which means I would have big time problem... ya know, if mama ain't happy...etc.)

Your last sentence puzzles me and you need to take in account that I've never been married either but I can't imagine a woman who would rather have a satin black XL over a Piano Black XL. The satin black finish is totally plain jane compared to the rich Piano Black finish which is what I own. But then again I'm not a woman and have never "owned" one so this is strictly speculation on my part.

I would suggest doing a daily check at A'gon as cherry ACI subs do pop up from time to time. Good luck.

Cherry,
Robin

[Mike Dzurko]

I like wood, I love cherry. That said, it is looking more and more likely that we may not be ordering anything other than black sub cabs. When I look back at the sales #s, the black just sells in much higher #s. NONE of the cabinet builders we work with really is interested in doing small quantities of given finish. 

[Frank Adamski]

Small quantities are no big deal to me Mike!

I've been doing woodworking as a hobby for a couple of decades now and would build these special order cabs with no problem what so ever.  As sure as today is Sunday, theres bound to be qualified others out there in your customer base willing to do the same.  I would imagine their construction quality would match your company ideals as you have been dedicated to persueing a high quailty and performance value ratio.

You only need to raise the rally flag to supply the exotic demand and enhance your company's versatility.  Quality control can start at the most basic level with exact construction mandates supplied from your own cabinet makers.  You dictate the details on cab and veneers in place of their building preferences which ensures consistancy, a most desireable attribute.

I have the upgraded G2's & M2's, Super Titan's, Sapphire II, IIti and III with powered Titan Subs.  I just bought on e-bay, some AC12's and I plan to build those old Saturn subs in a modded stereo configuration with a different Xover for an old favorite pair of JBL D130/O75 speakers.  Some people cant resist building and fiddling with things!  Why not take advantage of that joy and tactfully exploit those talents?

Farming out some business to your dedicated customers can fill in the gaps for those who are looking for something completely different.  Its not everyday a company can boast that many of its customers become employees.  Loyalty is always the great promoter!  I too am a big fan of Cherry and how is darkens so gracfully with age, but I have made cabs from Zebrawood, Lacewood, Birdseye Maple and many others that you for obvious business reasons cannot offer to such a small niche.  In its simplest form, they're only boxes and the price only reflects its construction and decoration.  anything is possible.  Keep in mind that lots of part-timers add up to full-timers and a dedicated person could handle the subcontractors concerning the quality and ship-time issues.

Anything the mind of man can conceive and believe, it will achieve! 

Give me a hollar and speaker your mind!

Frank Adamski  413-567-4021

[musicman06]

I like wood, I love cherry. That said, it is looking more and more likely that we may not be ordering anything other than black sub cabs. When I look back at the sales #s, the black just sells in much higher #s. NONE of the cabinet builders we work with really is interested in doing small quantities of given finish. 

Of course sales dictate business decisions, but I have to agree with others here that going away from the wood finishes takes away some of the product appeal. Dare I say the resulting view becomes one of "just another black box".

[Mike Dzurko]

Interesting ideas Frank, and we've actually experimented and explored some of these concepts. There are some practical things that get in the way:

1) Is shipping and packaging . . . BOTH are expensive, and the cost of packaging for example comes down drastically with volume purchased. Generally, you need to buy 50-100 packaging sets to get a reasonable price . . . so do you want to invest $1000s in boxes? Where will you put them? And no, it isn't cost effective for us to purchase/warehouse and ship them to you.

2) When you go from DIY to providing a commercial product, you'll need to have insurance and some other costs which make you a business enterprise, like a business license, you'll have to have accounting, etc. Why? Because as a business, we have to have all these things and if we purchase from individuals, rather than companies, we are in essence taking you on as a subcontractor with all sorts of liabilities that my accountant would string me up for 

3) A major issue to me is quality assurance. I'm sure you are a fine craftsman. But there is a big difference between building a great set of cabinets for yourself and building in quantity. Even the pros can have issues with their raw materials, MDF, adhesives, finishes,  (oh yes, are you going to be able to show you have OSHA compliant finishing with the required air handlers, filters, etc?).

So, if you still are interested in the cabinet biz. Take a guess at what you'll need to charge me to build Force XLs in cherry veneer including packaging and shipping to Wisconsin and shoot me a PM . . .  I will listen. Thanks!

[DR]

Images,

This thread is a little hard to follow but it looks as though Mike has Cherry Titans left. Why not one Titan instead of two Force. I have owned one and it is a beast and easy to integrate.