[sts9fan]

spot on.

[Wind Chaser]

I'd love to have one of his amps for $500 but at this point that does not look to be the ethical course.

Ethical?  A Rawson isn't a Pass.  It's a cheap imitation, a knock off.  Some people will be content to own one because like a Cubic Zirconia, they can't afford the real thing.

[miklorsmith]

Apparently Mr. Pass does not agree.  I don't think the diamond vs. CZ comparison is appropriate.  A diamond has nothing but its structure, imperfections, and social status that make it what it is.  A circuit given to a reasonably competent builder can be just as good sonically as "the real thing".

Mr. Pass does not personally build all his amps at Pass Labs.  Guess who does?  A bunch of competent builders working from a circuit diagram from the brain of the man himself.

Here are his clipped comments from the DIY thread:

While I have made some clarifying statements regarding policy in the past,
I don't think they reveal my true motivation.

Sure, the odd kitchen entrepreneur makes a knockoff of one of my designs.
The problem is that he uses my trademarks to promote the sale.

Does this cost me the sale of an amplifier because the customer bought the
knock-off? Probably not.

What it costs me is the ability to market through quality distribution in many
places because distributors look at the knock-offs as degrading the value of
the original in the marketplace. The good distributor in Asia or Europe and
even the good dealer in the U.S. will complain that business is tough enough
without this additional obstacle.

They of course point to an easy solution - stop publishing the schematics.

“Who steals my purse, steals trash, but he that filches from me my good
name robs me of that which not enriches him and makes me poor indeed.”
- Shakespeare

[zybar]

I'd love to have one of his amps for $500 but at this point that does not look to be the ethical course.

Ethical?  A Rawson isn't a Pass.  It's a cheap imitation, a knock off.  Some people will be content to own one because like a Cubic Zirconia, they can't afford the real thing.

Who claimed a Rawson was a Pass??   

I know when I have talked about my amps that I say it is a Pass clone amp or a Nelson Pass design built by Tim.

It isn't a cheap knock off or imitation, it is simply an amp built using the design or schematic provided publicly by Nelson Pass.

I viewed buying one of these amps as a relatively inexpensive way to see how a Nelson Pass circuit can sound.  I never thought I was getting a Pass amp and I am fine with that.  I would have built it myself if I had any skills or tools - but I don't.

As Tom stated above, I really like the sound of my amps; so much that I will almost certainly buy a Pass XA.5 series amp some time down the road.

George

[Wind Chaser]

The problem is that he uses my trademarks to promote the sale.

That doesn't sound like the actual product Rawson builds is the problem.

[Wind Chaser]

It isn't cheap knock off...

Nelson Pass writes... "Does this cost me the sale of an amplifier because the customer bought the
knock-off? Probably not."

[miklorsmith]

C'mon Wind, you're better than that:

What it costs me is the ability to market through quality distribution in many
places because distributors look at the knock-offs as degrading the value of
the original in the marketplace. The good distributor in Asia or Europe and
even the good dealer in the U.S. will complain that business is tough enough
without this additional obstacle.

The simple fact is that Mr. Pass believes this injures him in some way.  It would be hard to blame him if he decided to take his ball and go home.

[planet10]

That doesn't sound like the actual product Rawson builds is the problem.

Indeed.

As long as anyone's circuit -- including Nelson's -- is not covered by a patent, it is perfectly legal to build it. What is illegal is using trademarks or any copyrighted material* in the manufacture promotion & sale of it. *(ie manuals, literature, printed circuit board designs)

This thread is related to the above: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133522

dave

[zybar]

The problem is that he uses my trademarks to promote the sale.

That doesn't sound like the actual product Rawson builds is the problem.

Understood.

If I ever sell my amps, I will be sure to not call it a Pass amp.   

George

[EDS_]

Let's get real. N.P. has the wherewithal to squash this guy like a bug without your vitriol. If he felt this was a big enough problem, Nelson would take care of it quickly and quietly. Maybe he sees you moralizers as a pathway to goodwill and good publicity. I wasn't kidding about the genius comment.

And EDS -  Tim Rawson's morals are his business, not yours. I don't know the guy, will never buy his products and don't especially approve of what I've seen described here, but I do not feel qualified to call him out publicly. What qualifies you?

Actually it's difficult to stop people like Rawson from pirating circuits. 

I can call him out because he is obviously and openly - even stealing Pass's names for circuits - cheating NP.

[Wind Chaser]

If I ever sell my amps, I will sure to not call it a Pass amp.

So what claim do you make, how do you represent it?


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Because NP makes his his intellectual property available to anyone and everyone for various purposes which includes building the actual circuits, this is a grey area.  However if Rawson was reverse engineering Pass designs, then that would be a different story.

As I recall NP was at first publishing schematics to non commercial designs as experiments for the DIY community.  Then at some point he decided to publish schematics to his commercial designs.  Well, what do you expect in a free unregulated market?

Personally I'd love to see Nelson Pass and Tim Rawson on a future episode of Judge Judy.

[EDS_]

Basically I think that's exactly the right answer.  Mr. Pass is the most generous commercial builder in the industry today.  Nobody else contributes what he does to the "greater good" and the designs in question are only in the public eye from his good will.  Look at it this way, if Mr. Pass removes his designs from the public domain you still don't get an artificially cheapened amp (no gain) yet there is terrible loss to the DIY community. 

From Wikipedia:

"The Tragedy of the Commons" is an influential article discussing the commons dilemma; it was written by Garrett Hardin and first published in the journal Science in 1968.[1] The article describes a dilemma in which multiple individuals acting independently in their own self-interest can ultimately destroy a shared resource even where it is clear that it is not in anyone's long term interest for this to happen. The essence of the commons dilemma has been discussed by theorists since ancient history, but not under that name. It has also been studied more recently, such as in game theory.

Central to Hardin's article is a metaphor of herders sharing a common parcel of land (the commons), on which they are all entitled to let their cows graze. In Hardin's view, it is in each herder's interest to put as many cows as possible onto the land, even if the commons is damaged as a result. The herder receives all of the benefits from the additional cows, while the damage to the commons is shared by the entire group. If all herders make this individually rational decision, however, the commons is destroyed and all herders suffer.

Full entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

I'd love to have one of his amps for $500 but at this point that does not look to be the ethical course.

Best post I've read on AC in a long time-

[Wind Chaser]

I would have built it myself if I had any skills or tools - but I don't.

Certainly NP knows there are many people like this.  About 10 years ago I spoke to NP about this and his response was "you can do it."  Indeed those that can, do.  Those that can't, hire someone.  I told him odds are I'd end up killing myself and burning down the house.

[macrojack]

This question is not so black and white as some presume. I think the diversity of intelligent opinion expressed here bears that out. But let's suppose for a moment that we all agreed either way........what would we do about it? Is it up to us to do anything?

If you think it is O.K. to buy amps from Tim, get them while you can. If you don't think so, buy something else instead. We are not a Grand Jury and this is not our business.

Nelson intends for people to have access to these designs apparently and I don't see any reason to be concerned about who does the soldering. If I built one (impossible) would it be O.K. for me to sell it later? Would it be wrong to tell the buyer whatever I can about the otherwise unquantifiable entity offered in my ad?

The economy is looking very distraught. I'm receiving sale notices and emails from every audio company that knows how to get in touch with me. All of this is new within the last couple of weeks. Many of us are very worried about the near future. And we're bickering about the morality of some guy selling an amp a month for next to nothing. Talk about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!!!

[zybar]

This question is not so black and white as some presume. I think the diversity of intelligent opinion expressed here bears that out. But let's suppose for a moment that we all agreed either way........what would we do about it? Is it up to us to do anything?

If you think it is O.K. to buy amps from Tim, get them while you can. If you don't think so, buy something else instead. We are not a Grand Jury and this is not our business.

Nelson intends for people to have access to these designs apparently and I don't see any reason to be concerned about who does the soldering. If I built one (impossible) would it be O.K. for me to sell it later? Would it be wrong to tell the buyer whatever I can about the otherwise unquantifiable entity offered in my ad?

The economy is looking very distraught. I'm receiving sale notices and emails from every audio company that knows how to get in touch with me. All of this is new within the last couple of weeks. Many of us are very worried about the near future. And we're bickering about the morality of some guy selling an amp a month for next to nothing. Talk about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!!!

AMEN!!

George

[anubisgrau]

Without Nelson's permisson to build and sell these, he is sewing disrespect and every one of these amps has bad karma.

this sentence contains a spectacular level of stupidity!

as i said before, i have no money to pay the original first watt designs. i'm deeply grateful to tim rawson who helped me to enter the world of first watt beauty, without charging me a usual 1:5 ratio of audio manufacturers, sadly present even in the first watt world.

[anubisgrau]

Sorry to butt in, I am new here, and came because I am interested in the F3 amp. Unfortunately for me, I do not have big $ to buy from firstwatt, and if I were to try DIY, I would be blowing circuit breakers and letting out the magic smoke from the transistors.

So are we saying that a person like me simply cannot have even an unbadged, amateur-made F3 from a competent builder?

Or do I just need to wait 5 or 10 years until the prices of the "real" versions go down (and my pocketbook bulks up)?

period.

exactly what i wrote many lines ago.

too much vitriol for nothing my brothers.

[miklorsmith]

If Mr. Pass chooses to remove his designs from the public domain, I expect that conclusion will be rewritten.  If he doesn't I suppose we're all free to argue ad infinitum, as with all other things audio.   

It seems a tailored solution is possible if the designs aren't patented - Mr. Rawson could continue, so long as the units are not freely marketed as "Pass" and "First Watt" designs.  Even that sounds pretty grey but at least could be a start.  This could be a valid approach but I do find it ironic that the real genius (the design) wouldn't be the controlling issue, rather the naming rights thereof.

[lonewolfny42]

As Tom stated above, I really like the sound of my amps; so much that I will almost certainly buy a Pass XA.5 series amp some time down the road.

George

George.....Here's one just down the road... 

[zybar]

As Tom stated above, I really like the sound of my amps; so much that I will almost certainly buy a Pass XA.5 series amp some time down the road.

George

George.....Here's one just down the road... 

Damn...that's tempting.  In fact, there is another one just a couple of towns over.

But I will most likely wait for now - I simply have way too much gear and the holiday season is upon us.

George