[mitch stl]

Just out of curiosity, how many Rawson-built amps are we talking? Some of the posts make it sound like a manufacturing production line has been set up and others make it sound like a fellow that builds a few amps a year and sells them when he gets ready for his next project.

[planet10]

From what I've read in the last few months, it seems to be thing with Planet 10 to spew dirt on what was a clean floor. First it's Omega, now Tim Rawson?

Dirt?

If you read closely i do not accuse Rawson of anything. If what Hogg says is true then what Rawson is doing is fine.

As a moderator at diyAudio, where Nelson Pass and his stuff is very prominent, i have been privy to the discussions (which include Nelson) about what constitutes OK behaviour wrt this stuff. It is very important to diyAudio as a forum that we have a clear policy. All i have been doing is expounding this (in my own words) as a guideline.

As to Omega, i made 2 observations and asked a question arising out of one of them;

1/ hemptone cones were referred to as patented when in actual fact only a patent application exists.

2/ the patent talks mostly about manilla hemp including the proffered preferred receipe. A generic use of the term hemp was also used but i know of at least 15 species of plants referred to as hemp and only one of them is cannabis hemp. One could then infer that there is a high likliehood that the hemptone cones are made from manila and not cannabis as is often inferred but never stated outright. I just asked for clarification on what the hempcones were actually made of. That question never got answered, as it seems Louis is not sure.

Any dirt is in the minds of the beholder.

dave

[TomS]

Thanks all   Guess I should have left well enough alone and/or put my comments in a reviews circle ...

FWIW, if I sold my own F4's at "market value", I'd be lucky to get about a nickel an hour for my labor to go with a loss on expensive Plitrons, Conrad powder coated heatsinks (from Australia), hand matched Jfets and Mosfets, Vishays, cryo'd AC parts, Vampire and Cardas connectors, IXYS FREDs, etc.  Mine are quite ugly and of course in no way could compete with the beautiful metal sculptures FW turns out (maybe 100 F4 units total).  I know first hand what this stuff costs to build one at a time and it's WAY more than some of you seem to think.  If you truly know what good parts cost, look at the re-selling prices and draw your own conclusions.

If you talk to most any hobby woodworker, starving artist, or even diy audio builders, making stuff with your hands is simply good for the soul, not to mention what you learn in the process.  It is very satisfying and has absolutely nothing to do with the $.  The tweaking and variation on the theme is what differentiates yours from the next guys and is all part of the fun. 

I most certainly can't speak for Tim (and don't know him), but my guess is he falls more into this sort of camp than someone with a flashy e-commerce website openly selling an inventory of cloned boards, kits, and amps purely for profit ... 

As George said, perhaps we can just agree to disagree, or that their are different, though completely valid points of view, and move on.  From my personal perspective, I'm still enjoying this amp a lot 

[Gaara]

Take a look at how many Tim sells, I see one of his ads once every few weeks.  For those who know him he does this on the side as a hobby, Tim will try a amp, if he likes it he will hold onto it, if not he will sell it off.

For those who have bought direct from Tim you know how little he charges for his time.  Let me put it this way, if I were to have the same skill level as him it would be more cost effective to hire him then to do it myself...thats how little he charges.  He isn't in this to make profit, he isn't a business blowing these things out, he is a hobbyist who builds for his own pleasure, and every once in a while a request comes in for a specific item to be built(I buy something new once a year).

Dave,

Thanks for the info, trademark infringement makes sense...didn't think of that angle.

Mitch stl,

Look on Audiogon.  Tim usually has something up once every few weeks on average, and they are usually varied.  I think the issue is alot of people resell tim's products, so you will often see 3-4 on Agon at any time with Tim's name attached, but he is not selling these.  For example right now there are 3 amps on Agon with Tim's name attached...none being sold by him.

[miklorsmith]

In general I wish there was less accusatory witch-hunting around here.  Live and let live, brothers.

[EDS_]

In general I wish there was less accusatory witch-hunting around here.  Live and let live, brothers.

If people didn't abuse others and other's property we would require far fewer laws/rules and their associated costs.

[HT cOz]

I find it hard to believe NP and Tim haven't talked about this.

[bummrush]

he probably has Nelsons blessing and not a one of us here would be the wiser,like i said i'm sure has bigger things to worry about.

[miklorsmith]

.

[sts9fan]

n general I wish there was less accusatory witch-hunting around here.  Live and let live, brothers.

People try to protect their interests.  Abuses like this ruin it for true DIYers. If you don't have the time or skills tough.  That does not give you the right to break the rules.

he probably has Nelsons blessing and not a one of us here would be the wiser,like i said i'm sure has bigger things to worry about.

He 100% does not.  Please follow the link to diyaudio and read Nelson's statement. 

[EDS_]

he probably has Nelsons blessing and not a one of us here would be the wiser,like i said i'm sure has bigger things to worry about.

I believe NP has castigated Rawson publicly - someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[bummrush]

If thats the case i for sure will stand corrected,just throwing out a scenario,then whats up with Rawson making these,it has to be more then just a hobby,a buck a buck.

[macrojack]

Nelson Pass is a genius and that extends well beyond amplifier design. He can take care of himself very well and can fend off this issue if he chooses to do so. Public castigation of Tim Rawson is neither wise nor warranted. If you feel a need to support N.P. you can do so by ignoring Mr. Rawson and his offerings. He can't do much damage if no one is buying.

This is a tempest in a teapot. No reason to become indignant.

I agree with Miklorsmith about the witch hunting. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[JDUBS]

I absolutely agree with macrojack and Miklorsmith.  Don't like it?  Don't buy it.  This holds true with most everything, doesn't it?

-Jim

[EDS_]

Nelson Pass is a genius and that extends well beyond amplifier design. He can take care of himself very well and can fend off this issue if he chooses to do so. Public castigation of Tim Rawson is neither wise nor warranted. If you feel a need to support N.P. you can do so by ignoring Mr. Rawson and his offerings. He can't do much damage if no one is buying.

This is a tempest in a teapot. No reason to become indignant.

I agree with Miklorsmith about the witch hunting. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

That's absurd.

To me it is axiomatically ironic and sad that folks will bash Big 3 auto CEO for flying private when it makes perfect economic and financial sense for them to do so and then cheer on and support a guy who is likely breaking the law.


A great percentage of mankind are morally bankrupt to a significant degree - this thread proves as much.

[EDS_]

I absolutely agree with macrojack and Miklorsmith.  Don't like it?  Don't buy it.  This holds true with most everything, doesn't it?

-Jim

Come on,  the problem stems from those who buy Rawson's goods.

[miklorsmith]

Honestly I hadn't read the linked response from Mr. Pass before I last posted, my mistake.  I didn't realize he had weighed in and that does change my opinion of the situation.  It doesn't change my general thought that we are awfully quick to judge around here though.

[macrojack]

Let's get real. N.P. has the wherewithal to squash this guy like a bug without your vitriol. If he felt this was a big enough problem, Nelson would take care of it quickly and quietly. Maybe he sees you moralizers as a pathway to goodwill and good publicity. I wasn't kidding about the genius comment.

And EDS -  Tim Rawson's morals are his business, not yours. I don't know the guy, will never buy his products and don't especially approve of what I've seen described here, but I do not feel qualified to call him out publicly. What qualifies you?

[lousytourist]

Sorry to butt in, I am new here, and came because I am interested in the F3 amp. Unfortunately for me, I do not have big $ to buy from firstwatt, and if I were to try DIY, I would be blowing circuit breakers and letting out the magic smoke from the transistors.

So are we saying that a person like me simply cannot have even an unbadged, amateur-made F3 from a competent builder?

Or do I just need to wait 5 or 10 years until the prices of the "real" versions go down (and my pocketbook bulks up)?

[miklorsmith]

Basically I think that's exactly the right answer.  Mr. Pass is the most generous commercial builder in the industry today.  Nobody else contributes what he does to the "greater good" and the designs in question are only in the public eye from his good will.  Look at it this way, if Mr. Pass removes his designs from the public domain you still don't get an artificially cheapened amp (no gain) yet there is terrible loss to the DIY community. 

From Wikipedia:

"The Tragedy of the Commons" is an influential article discussing the commons dilemma; it was written by Garrett Hardin and first published in the journal Science in 1968.[1] The article describes a dilemma in which multiple individuals acting independently in their own self-interest can ultimately destroy a shared resource even where it is clear that it is not in anyone's long term interest for this to happen. The essence of the commons dilemma has been discussed by theorists since ancient history, but not under that name. It has also been studied more recently, such as in game theory.

Central to Hardin's article is a metaphor of herders sharing a common parcel of land (the commons), on which they are all entitled to let their cows graze. In Hardin's view, it is in each herder's interest to put as many cows as possible onto the land, even if the commons is damaged as a result. The herder receives all of the benefits from the additional cows, while the damage to the commons is shared by the entire group. If all herders make this individually rational decision, however, the commons is destroyed and all herders suffer.

Full entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

I'd love to have one of his amps for $500 but at this point that does not look to be the ethical course.