[EDS_]

NP has been very clear about this topic for a long time.  He has indicated in writing that his "plans" may be used by hobbyists but the amps cannot be sold as a business item.  This stuff is on his website - or at least it was last time I looked.

It looks to me like NP should sue Rawson. 

[Gaara]

NP has been very clear about this topic for a long time.  He has indicated in writing that his "plans" may be used by hobbyists but the amps cannot be sold as a business item.  This stuff is on his website - or at least it was last time I looked.

It looks to me like NP should sue Rawson. 

Does he have that information with each of the designs, or is it just in his postings?  I looked through his most recent design, the B1 Buffer and found no mention of who should and shouldn't use the design, and for what purpose...not to mention a copyright.

I don't see him suing Rawson.  It wouldn't be worth his time or $, not to mention it would be difficult to prove that Tim was actually selling them for profit, and if he was selling them for a profit he was operating as a business.  Assuming the copyright is valid he would also have the burden of proof to show how he was harmed by Rawson's actions (at least this is my understanding of copyright laws).

[planet10]

It isn't like he is opening a business selling the amps, he clearly makes little money on them to cover his time, and sells few of them.  Then they complain that he uses the Aleph name in his ads, what is he supposed to call them? 

The designs are out there for personal use. Obviously Rawson isn't buidling them for personal use... doesn't matter whether he is making money or not.

Any of Nelson's stuff that is covered by his patents are decidedly off-limits without a licence.

Anything that doesn't is fair game -- you can't copyright a circuit.

What is against the rules is to use Nelson's trademarks -- if Rawson calls it an Aleph to assist in selling it, he is breaking the law.

What it really comes down to is a matter of respect... Nelson has given hugely to the diy community and he deserves respect for that.

AFAIK Rawson has not gotten permission, and is not respecting Nelson... for that he earns the animosity of many.

Peter Daniels has asked and gotten permission to do what he is doing (and he isn't selling finished products -- he is selling parts to aid diyers in building their own).

dave

[TomS]

... I have the X-AJ out on loan to a fellow AC member, he certainly has my blessing to post his thoughts on the amp in his system.

I've been fortunate to have Zybar's TR XA-J amp in my system for the past week or so (thanks George!) and have thoroughly enjoyed it.  So far it has been on the HF end of the CS2's replacing my own Aikido/F4 combo.  The LF is still using the Odyssey SE's.

I'm just getting around to forming some impressions, as I decided the XA-J needed some time to burn in and settle before serious listening.  Now that it's reached that point I can say with no doubts it is an absolute treat.  While I still like the Aikido/F4 a lot, this amp has a much more engaging flow that really draws you in.  It has that "just right" body and richness that most often comes from good tube amps, though it does not do it by adding anything at all.  At first I thought it was a little soft on top, but over time it really opened up and I decided it was the more natural presentation of the two.  The F4 combo seems to add just a tad more excitement in the treble, not really sure what it is, but it's different.  The F4 may be slightly more transparent, revealing some detail that though less pleasant to listen to sometimes, is really there.  Some of that could be parts selection and just break-in time (the F4/Aikido has many hours).  With the XA-J and SE's, the CS2's just really get the midrange meat of things right.  The other area where the XA-J shines is placement of instruments, both in width and depth.  I associate this again more closely with good tubes, like the Joule VZN's I had for a long time.   It really is a very spooky feeling how real it can make it sound, but the combo of the XA-J and CD/waveguide works very well to solidly position things in space.  Oh, and even with the CS2's 100db sensitivity, it is dead quiet just like my F4, unlike my tube amp.  As usual with the CS2's and an amp this good, it just makes you want to sit and listen to music all day.  Hopefully I can try the XA-J on LF and F4 HF after the holiday, as I really want to hear what it can do on the bass end too.

I'd prefer to stay out of the debate that started this thread, but do want to clarify a couple things about this amp, at least as I understand it.  While I don't know the exact design/schematic, it uses proprietary topologies from NP (X and Aleph), along with a J-Fet front end thus the name "XA-J".  With modest power such that it is all contained in one case I don't believe it's really a complete copy of a particular Pass or FW amp, rather it's a variant.  I can't say whether it's right or wrong, just my observation of the facts, so please leave it alone and recognize this is simply a great one-off amp.  If you can build one for yourself (wish I could), you'd be hard pressed to find much better for the $.  If you have the means to acquire an XA.5 I doubt you'd be disappointed either.

Had it not been for NP's innovative ideas and hints/coaching to DIYers, DIYAudio folks turning that into a real design, TR executing it, and George's sharing, it's not likely I'd get to hear an XA based amp in my own system at all.  For that I'm very appreciative.  It does really make me wonder just what an XA.5 would do in my system... so who knows, maybe there is pull through from this for the Pass brand after all.  An XA30.5 maybe?  One can dream...  aa

[EDS_]

This thread has become depressing.  If anyone wonders why libertarianism (the philosophy not the political party) can't work this thread offers strong evidence.

[sts9fan]

TR executing it

profiting?

[zybar]

TR executing it

profiting?

Now I thought we discussed this on Saturday and agreed to disagree?

Rather than debate this topic, how about questions or comments on the sonic picture Tom painted?

George

[richidoo]

maybe there is pull through from this for the Pass brand after all.  An XA30.5 maybe?  One can dream...  aa

Thanks for the review Tom, nice job. I heard F5 at RMAF and liked the feel of it very much. I talked to Colin Pass about using the FirstWatt amps in my system and he steered me toward XA30.5. I balked at first, thinking it must cost 10large. But he said it is about $5k. RenoHiFi is selling them for about $4800 shipped, and I saw one used last week for even less. That puts it right into the sweet spot pricewise with some other very happening amps. Another consideration I had about 30w amp would be the power limitation, there's no way around that no matter how great it sounds. But Colin assured me the XAs (unlike the F5 which has a firm 25W limit) play very big and it makes 60+ at 4ohms. A friend brought over his original-design integrated with 30 very healthy watts. We played it loud and hard and it definitely cut the mustard for the way I listen. My speakers are 6ohm avg, dipping to 4, about 90dB. My point is that I agree with your premise that the first watt designs and Rawsons building service do indeed draw people into the Pass brand, and are good calling cards. Of course the XAs do things the F5 or future F8 can't ever do, but they demonstrate the philosophy which you can buy in a more pure form with the XAs. I was disappointed not to see any XA amps at RMAF, just the 150X intergrated and the first watt F5. Both were awesome.
Rich

[sts9fan]

We did and I did but the topic came back as a review thread.  Maybe a new thread is in order. 

[DavidS]

I too have been looking at the XA 30.5 but for now out of my price range.  Instead have done the unthinkable and swapped some gear for a F5 clone to try with my 90 db, 8 ohm GMA Pico Exec HDs.  I have a small room but still not sure this will be enough power but price was right.  I've read so many rave reviews about all amps Nelson Pass; almost like there needs to be a hierarchy of amps done with listening notes (like vintages of great reds) as I read and piece together what vintage would compare to current .5 versions to First Watt iterations.  Expect that some day I will own an actual Pass Labs for First Watt amp.  Tom thanks for your notes, impressions, and discussion.

[JDUBS]

Who runs a business to break even?  I've had a few of Tim's amps and they have all been great.  He does terrific work.

The price he charges basically covers parts AND labor.

-Jim

[sts9fan]

What would that labor be worth without the NP designed amp?

[planet10]

Who runs a business to break even?  I've had a few of Tim's amps and they have all been great.  He does terrific work.

The price he charges basically covers parts AND labor.

It covers labour? So he is making money from it.

Again: Nelson released these designs for PERSONAL USE ONLY. If he is building and selling an amplifier that has some of Nelson's patented IP he is violating the patents.

If he is taking any of the designs that doesn't have Nelson's patented IP, then that is fine, but using ANY of Nelson's trademarks or copyrights to sell them is.

Without Nelson's permisson to build and sell these, he is sewing disrespect and every one of these amps has bad karma.

No matter how good these amps may be be, or how nice it is to have someone else build it, anyone who buys these is an accessory to these crimes.

dave

[bummrush]

I'd say if Nelson hasn't done anything yet,he might not be to worried about it,but if he responds in a public way that might be a entirely different situation,and just bring about unwanted attention to this whole deal which doesn't help anyone.Its not like he doesnt know how to get a hold of Tim.Which gets to the point,how does anybody know Tim hasn't already talked to Nelson about it.

[Wind Chaser]

These holier than thou arguments are a bit much.  Especially in the light of some folks here having been accused of the same so-called "crime". 

Nelson Pass isn't an idiot.  Obviously he knows there are people who'd like to try his designs but are not capable of soldering, much less reading a schematic and putting a circuit together.  If someone wants a Pass DIY project, what's to stop him from paying someone else to assemble it?

I doubt Tim is getting rich doing this.  I bet it's just a hobbyist thing he does on the side.  If in fact he is making money doing this, it's more likely just a token, certainly not something that pays the bills so to speak.

FTR, I do not, nor have I ever owned a Rawson build, they're just plain butt ugly. 

[bummrush]

In the grand scheme of things Nelson probably has bigger fish to fry.

[TRADERXFAN]

Well I was curious a few months ago about chip amps and I bought a "rawsone" one, 3rd hand, off of audiogon. When I look at this thing I don't get the feeling he was trying to make it a commercial pursuit -- its pretty rough! I guess the question I am wondering, is: if he's not trying to make a product to sell, then why build so many amps then?

(BTW if anyone is interested I will sell the one I got for 100 bucks)

So my question to audiocircle is one of morality/logic- if I build a Pass amp expressly for personal use, am I unable to ever sell it without violating this? 

[planet10]

So my question to audiocircle is one of morality/logic- if I build a Pass amp expressly for personal use, am I unable to ever sell it without violating this? 

As long as it isn't build, flip, build, flip ... it is considered OK... many that build 1 Pass amp end up building more. At some point some of them just have to go.

dave

[Hogg]

As an owner of a Rawson amp, I'm bothered by the tenor of this thread.  Tim builds amps, uses them for a while and then sells them as a hobby.  It's not his business.  Most of his amps have been chip amps or other designs from Diyaudio.  Tim is a very competent amp builder and fills a need for those of us who are all thumbs.  It seems to me mountains are being made from mole hills on this topic

                                                                                               Jim

[satfrat]

As an owner of a Rawson amp, I'm bothered by the tenor of this thread.  Tim builds amps, uses them for a while and then sells them as a hobby.  It's not his business.  Most of his amps have been chip amps or other designs from Diyaudio.  Tim is a very competent amp builder and fills a need for those of us who are all thumbs.  It seems to me mountains are being made from mole hills on this topic

                                                                                               Jim

From what I've read in the last few months, it seems to be thing with Planet 10 to spew dirt on what was a clean floor. First it's Omega, now Tim Rawson?  Quite a pattern of selfrightousnesss being posted of late. aa

Cheers,
Robin