[satfrat]

I think without a strong used market there can be no new market.
I mean really, if you had a set of 2's and wanted to upgrade to 3's, most would sell the 2's to get the 3's right?
And lets say you wanted to change your amp(s) you would sell that amp to get another right?
Honestly we can't all keep everything so some stuff must be sold.

If you paid 2000 for your 2's and there was no used market than they would be worth nothing used, why would anyone buy new then?

There must be a used market, and the manufacturer should be glad people want to buy their gear used, it maintains the value of their new gear.

A manufacturer that shuns a person because they bought used is just an asshole, the audio community is full of them, they just don't know it.

Also the manufacturers get tired of us audiophiles calling them, asking them the same annoying questions all the time. Most of them are not really a sales department, but one man R&D shops that may have a few people with manufacture.

When I bought a used VAC, I called Kevin and he was a gentleman and said," Welcome to the family", he obviously gets it, he is very kind and helpful, but you have to pay for it!$$

just my thoughts

Hi Mike, got something for ya Satrurday. Let me ask you a question Mike, if you were in the market for a used set of Vandersteen loudspeakers, would you call the Mr. Vandersteen personally and waste the man's time with questions? Unless he's a 1 man company (like Klaus Bunger of Odyssey Audio) I would imagine you could call any Vandersteen dealer, like John Rutan of audio Connect and get your answers. Just a thought,,,  

Cheers,
Robin

[Bill Baker]

I prefer to speak with those looking at or who have already purchased one of my products on the used market. For one, it allows a product to be heard by someone who may otherwise not be able to afford it. It also assures the new owner is not lost in a fog about the product.

 I recently received a call from someone who purchased a pair of amps I built 8 years ago. He had quite a few questions about the setup, bias and speaker pairing. If I had blown him off, what good would that do for my reputation.

 On another occasion about two weeks ago, I had someone call me on another amp I built about 6 years ago. he mentioned it did not sound right and would break up at louder listening levels. Turns out he was misreading the meter when biasing. A 15 minute phone conversation walking him through the bias procedure and he is a happy camper.

 Happy customers will often come back to those who provide good customer service. Some are even willing to pay a little more for a product knowing they can pick up the phone and talk to someone should the need arise.   I do not believe in the 'sell it-forget it' mentality that [some] other manufacturers have.

 What I do not like is when consumers call wanting to talk to you for an hour about a retail product you do not even carry or even do carry but they want to buy it elsewhere.

[satfrat]

 What I do not like is when consumers call wanting to talk to you for an hour about a retail product you do not even carry or even do carry but they want to buy it elsewhere.

Which looks a lot like what was going on here Bill. Some folks have a lot of nerve and very little consideration,,,,,

Just my opinion I'll add, fwiw.

Cheers,
Robin

[Bill Baker]

Which looks a lot like what was going on here Bill. Some folks have a lot of nerve and very little consideration,,,,,

 I agree. Unfortunately, there has been no reply by the original poster. I am sure there is much more to this story as Richard appears to me as a stand up person and his products obviously have a reputation that cannot be argued with.

[topround]

Robin,
I would call the manufacturer directly.
This may piss him off, I have pissed off one or two of these guys, not by choice of course, but man some of these guys are just unstable, no joking!
I would not call a dealer!!. These are the guys that have no interest in anyone buying used, I mean buying new is how they make money, unless they sport a used equip dept, which the internet killed.
There is a guy here in NJ, a complete asshole, OK, OK Audio Nexus in NJ, these guys are the worst this hobby has bred in terms of dealers. No money , no honey.
Which I can live with, we all need to pay our mortgage and feed our kids. But if I wanted to buy new, the last place I would go is there, I would shop somewhere else because of my experience there.

Honestly , who would you call, the manufacturer or the dealer? Both may have a bias, you have to choose who would better serve you. I called Richard once to ask about crossover changes in a certain line, and when they occurred, do you think a dealer would know that?
NEIN!
saturday!

Mike

[satfrat]

Robin,
I would call the manufacturer directly.
This may piss him off, I have pissed off one or two of these guys, not by choice of course, but man some of these guys are just unstable, no joking!
I would not call a dealer!!. These are the guys that have no interest in anyone buying used, I mean buying new is how they make money, unless they sport a used equip dept, which the internet killed.
There is a guy here in NJ, a complete asshole, OK, OK Audio Nexus in NJ, these guys are the worst this hobby has bred in terms of dealers. No money , no honey.
Which I can live with, we all need to pay our mortgage and feed our kids. But if I wanted to buy new, the last place I would go is there, I would shop somewhere else because of my experience there.

Honestly , who would you call, the manufacturer or the dealer? Both may have a bias, you have to choose who would better serve you. I called Richard once to ask about crossover changes in a certain line, and when they occurred, do you think a dealer would know that?
NEIN!
saturday!

Mike

I respectfully disagree with ya Mike,, plus calling to ask a technical question has nothing to do with my question to you. See ya saturday!

Cheers,
Robin

[topround]

Robin,
Where did I miss the mark?

If I had questions of a technical sort I would call Vandersteen, I really would probably call John Rutan first, but I know him! I would not call Vandersteen to ask him if he had any used speakers about, but a tech question, why not?
Why not call the guy who built them to answer tech questions?
and why should he be pissed you called him, unless he was having a bad day.

Speaking of bad days, this economy is heading towards the shitter so these guys better be nice, because the pool of buyers is going to get real shallow soon. take this from a bull.
I see the begining of the death spiral coming.

I want maple walnut pie for dessert
mike

[Tubeburner]

Wow! I work a lot of hours, so I had not made it back to this thread.

I called Richard Vandersteen to discuss my room and the Quatro's. I have been in contact with a dealer in another state, since there is no dealer in my state. My room is difficult, so I wanted his opinion. His receptionist gave me his cell phone number. I asked if it was OK to call him, and she said she just talked to him and give him a call. I told him I was buying new and know a dealer who has given me advice and is a musician himself and really cares about the music. My kind of dealer. Period. Mr. Vandersteen proceeded to tell me I have NO HONOR since I was not using another dealer in another state he felt was closer to me. I told him I trusted this dealer and consider him to be true to the music and he again stated it was a matter of honor. He knows nothing about me and did not even try to know me. To make such a statement makes him exactly what he is, a horses behind. I could care less how long he has been in the business, which was the reason for my interest, but he loses here. Yes, I air this in public so others may know who they are dealing with. I have contacted several designers of speakers, amps, preamp, wire, ect. and all have been gracious. Life is full of choices.

The moderator has my permission to remove this thread at his discression.

[satfrat]

I want maple walnut pie for dessert
mike

I don't know if I want to hand it to ya or throw it in your face. J/K 


Cheers,
Robin

[mr_bill]

I would say that you ALL owe tubeburner an apology for your assumptions and judgements.

[satfrat]

I would say that you ALL owe tubeburner an apology for your assumptions and judgements.

I disagree,,, if I'm understanding things right here. Mr Vandersteen runs a business that depends on dealers who do business within a defined region that's determined my the manufacturer. Not only was Mr Vandersteen within his legal rights to say with he did, he should also be calling this "questionable dealer" about doing business outside of his region. That's just plain stepping on another dealers toes and it's just not right. You're wrong tubeburner IMHO and FWIW.

Cheers,
Robin

[Bill Baker]

I would say that you ALL owe tubeburner an apology for your assumptions and judgements.

 This is why i did not pass judgement on tubeburners comment. As I mentioned, we did not know the story and still have only one side. I never pass judgement in these types of threads, just observations. Even when both sides are heard from, I have always found the truth to be somewhere in the middle

 I do think this dealer may be receiving a call from Richard.

 Tubeburner, it still comes down to whether or not you like the speakers. In the past, before becoming a dealer and manufacturer, I owned products designed and manufactured buy someone I did not particularly care for. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Richard, his products have always spoken for themselves.

 I still have no opinion to one side or the other and Tubeburner, I hope you end up with a pair of speakers that you enjoy. Life's to short.

 Happy listening.

[mr_bill]

Ok, not All but some of you for assuming he was buying used and then castigating him for that.  Get your facts straight first.

[satfrat]

Ok, not All but some of you for assuming he was buying used and then castigating him for that.  Get your facts straight first.

IF he had explained himself from the start, there wouldn't have been any assumptions to be made. I suggest you take your own advise Mr Bill.

Cheers,
Robin

[Bigfish]

I have read these threads and as a consumer I am surprised at the responses.  A company has the right to set up a dealer network and assign each dealer a territory.  If a dealer sells to someone outside of his territory it could be set-up that he could lose the distribution rights or required to pay commission to the assigned dealership.  This happens with all types of products.

Now as a consumer I have the right to try to buy a product from anyone who sells it.  The decision to purchase could be based on a relationship, price or because the dealership has a great reputation for taking care of customers.  If the dealer has a agreement in place with the manufacturer preventing sale to someone outside his territory he should:  A. Call the dealer in the customer's area and make a deal with him or B. Send the customer to the correct dealer or C. Take the risk of losing the distributorship and sell to the customer.  Hell, I might walk into a dealership in my area and I get pissed off, walk out but really want to buy a product and visit the dealership in the next city, don't tell me I have to go back to the place that just pissed me off! 

I do not question a manufacturers right to run his business in any way he/she choses to do so.  However, Ken the consumer has the right to decide if and how badly I want to buy his/her product!

Ken

[satfrat]

The right thing to have done,, and because there wasn't a nearby dealer available would have been for that dealer (or tubeburner himself) to call Mr Vandersteen to seek permission to sell to tubeburner. I've done this many times myself, the last to Mr Kubala to buy his Emotion power cords from a dealer a dozen states away from me. It was no problem and a successful transaction was realized. It's called tact.

Cheers,
Robin

[WolfsongAudio]

Dealer Territory has always been a tough subject.  When a manufacturer has defined dealer territories they MUST stick within those bounds.  Calling a manufacturer and saying " I do not want to do business with the dealer in my territory but this other dealer instead" is an infringement on the dealer network.  Most reasonable manufacturers will allow a customer ( or a potential  one at least ) to circumvent the territorial bounds if they can provide proof that the dealer in territory has somehow wronged them personally. Perhaps by providing poor service, not responding to questions, demo requests etc.   Many times when a customer calls a dealer out of state they are looking to find a dealer who will deeply discount the sale, allow them to avoid sales tax and provide limited service because "They know the product and they just want to buy it, no lowly dealer can provide me service or insight.  Just sell it to me cheap because I will buy it and go away".  Take a moment to ponder that.  So many of us have decided that we can not be helped by a dealer because "they are just out to get our money".   What happened to the dealer/customer relationship that both could benefit from?  They get a profit and we get the chance to audition, compose and learn about how products work together.  A system is the sum of its parts.  There are dealers out there who really do care about the development of a customer's system and their ultimate happiness with the performance of the system.  I know, I was a salesman at one for over 10 years.  When we as customers tell a dealer that he or she is but an obstacle to our getting what we want at a deep discount we are telling people who have put their own money and butts on the line that we get nothing from the work they have done and even if we do get a benefit then it is "not fair" for them to make money from our purchase.  
     Now I am NOT saying that this is the case here but in MANY MANY cases that is exactly why manufacturers set up dealer territorial networks.  There are always going to be dealers out there who will do business across territorial lines because they "Just sold the guy what he wanted" for a nice discount because they will never have to service the sale.  
     I am confused as to why the originator of this post would post on this site asking for a Mint pair of used speakers and THEN call the manufacturer to ask about buying new.
     Anyway, let's all try to remember what is important about our hobby/mania.  Listen to music.  Love what you hear.  Strive to make it more of what you want.   Trust your EARS.  Be happy that we have enough income to even ponder owning overpriced items we don't need.  My last 2 cents.

Mike

[WolfsongAudio]

Mr. Bill,

   His post here was "Looking for a Mint pair of Vandersteen Quattros".  Does that sound like he was really buying new? 

[Emil]

Ok, not All but some of you for assuming he was buying used and then castigating him for that.  Get your facts straight first.

Ok, ok....I apologize Tubeburner.

Now how did I ever come to the conclusion that he was buying used
Maybe it was from his WTB  ad here for a MINT, not new, pair of Quatro   

[Tubeburner]

Yes, I was looking for used originally. There were no replies, period. I sold my speakers and decided the warranty would be worth the extra money. No dealer here within 400 miles. What territory? Analyze what you may. I bought from this dealer before since I can visit family on the way. My choice and he is  a class act. My mistake for assuming the manufacturer was like most I have called for advice.