Seeking recommendations for my next subwoofers

2gumby2 · « **on:** 25 Oct 2008, 03:39 am »

I'm seeking recommendations for my next subwoofer purchase. They will be used in a 2-channel system only, no HT. The priorities are very low response (below 20Hz), high SPLs, and clean output. I often listen to pipe organ music which can dip down to around 16Hz and hard techno. I want bone crushing foundation shattering bass capability. The Wilson Hammers look interesting, but are out of my price range. I built two Bill Fitzmaurice designed Tuba Home Theaters, but I am not satisfied with the quality of bass. They go low and loud, but bass quality is poor. I also built two Rythmik Audio Servo subs, but they could not produce the SPLs I was looking for. So now I am considering a couple of Definitve Technology Trinity subwoofers. The DIY Cable Sicko sub project looked promising, but it may never see production. I've heard about the SP Technology Destroyer subs, but don't have much information about them since they have also not been put into production yet. The Definitive Technology Trinity subs are in the price range I am looking for, but I'm open to other suggestions if there are better subs out there for my priorities.

JimJ · « **Reply #1 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 04:17 am »

Personally, I would be looking at DIY projects.

Something like this: http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/el-pipe-o.pdf

Or http://www.cowanaudio.com/th.html

Infinite baffle would definitely meet your low response requirements, but I'm not sure about the high SPL one.

Brown · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 04:28 am »

HSU is for you. www.hsuresearch.com Great bass reasonable price. they go low and have good tone. SPL king.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #3 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 04:41 am »

I've never had the scratch for Hsu's upper end stuff that will actually get under 20hz, but what I've owned (stf-2 and vtf-2) has always hit hard with great tone if you set it up successfully. There should be no problems in the SPL department.

AFAIK, the SP Tech stuff will not be put into production before a buyer comes along. That would be my choice for output, if I had the means. Isobarik hybrid t-line just sounds too cool.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #4 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 08:26 am »

Anything MArk Seaton gets his hands on. He really does subs better than anyone I know.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 11:09 am »

Infinite Baffle

bpape · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 01:08 pm »

Check out the ACI Maestro XL. It does everything you want. Quick enough for music, nice and clean and tight, response below 20hz, etc.

Mike is a circle owner here on AC and a great guy to work with.

Bryan

bunky · « **Reply #7 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 01:39 pm »

I just recently bought a Mark Seaton designed AV123 MFW-15 that goes down to 15hz or so and it is a very musical subwoofer

thanks....WCW III

Audiovista · « **Reply #8 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 02:02 pm »

This looks like a good deal (I got myself one):

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VESP1200

Not below 20Hz, but not too far either (I believe spec is 22Hz @ -3dB, unlike many others who give the low limit @ -10dB)....if you get two, you may be able to blow the windows out....

2gumby2 · « **Reply #9 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 02:28 pm »

Big Red Machine or anyone else - do you have contact information for Mark Seaton? It seems he has a good reputation for sub designs. I'll check out the other sub recommendations as well. The El-Pipe-Os look pretty cool, but I don't have the space for those. Certainly looks like a fun project though.

Imperial · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 08:39 pm »

Mark Seaton

The Submersive sub looks like this:

It's dimensions are: (WxHxD = 17.5" x 23.25" x 24.75" + 3/4" feet)
It features 2x15" sub units in a push-push closed box arrangement.
I think it was 16.4hz reach or so.
I believe it is deemed a HT sub this, not sure how accurate it will be at those depths.

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(There is a Norwegian sub that looks like this one as well - it's called the Ragnarok, and it is very accurate)
(Come to think of it, a lot of subs do look like this, they are not equals all of them)

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DEEEEEEPEEER!!!! Bork bork bork! aa

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Imperial

opnly bafld · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 10:21 pm »

I believe the Submersive is supposed to be +/-3dB 20 to 200hz.

Imperial · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 10:25 pm »

The Submersive response plot.
Below 20Hz there is 6-8dB more output capability beyond this measurement. (- a quote)

The 16-17hz figure I believe I saw somewhere, a user having measured his room and found it could do just about that #hz level
(I could remember wrongly of course)

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Going down to 15hz CLEAN is not something that a lot of subs will do with much output, let alone there could be challenges getting ANY
sub to actually perform such a feat in the desired listening environment.

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I'm thinking that 2gumby2 maybe needs to have someone assess his room to find the best course of action to accomplish his goal.
Getting 15hz might require some thoughtfull planning and effort!
1. Floor/Roof node notch (to make for that clean techno subwoofer region) - Edit:oops: . I meant Floor/Ceiling...
2. Basstraps to maintain the "quickness" of the sub at very deep frequencies, could be required.. who knows..
3. The sub could need a equalizer setting that could be more complex than just phase, cutoff and gain... again, who knows..
etc. etc...

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Imperial

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 10:45 pm »

Mark is a personal friend and his Submersive is absolutely mindblowing in what it can do. A single unit can pressurize a room like no other sub I have experienced.

Imperial · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 10:49 pm »

It certainly resembles a sub that where I come from is regarded as something quite extraordinary (The Ragnarok)
Will it play down to 15 hz you recon then Big Red Machine clean enough to satisfy 2gumby2?

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Those Def. Tech Trinity subs do have some absolute psycho specs - I can't believe I actually never heard of them before

116db at 16hz!!! Ok, but would they actually work in the room? Woah! That is wild!!! (WxHxD = 18x31.75x18)

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Imperial

KS · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 11:01 pm »

Does this appear to meet your needs?

Rythmik Audio, Articulate Bass for the Discerning Audiophile

Or, same technology, differently voiced:
GR Research servo driver, sealed enclosure version.
Free Air (open baffle) version.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #16 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 12:10 am »

You should be careful to analyze the amount of power and driver excursion you are going to need for that kind of curve in a small sealed box. The small box is going to set the efficiency. Even with a high excursion 12" driver you are going to quickly run out of stroke with SPL. So the analysis has to include more than just your bandwidth, but your headroom requirements also. You need about x4 as much driver displacement for each octave you drop to hit an equivalent SPL. It doesn't take much of a mathematician to discover that what was suitable at a given SPL @ 40Hz, isn't going to cut it for the same SPL @ 20Hz let alone substantial output in the mid-teens.

I'd also consider it isn't unusual to have a good 12dB of room gain @ 20Hz. If you design the system to be flat @ 20Hz you end up with a fat first octave. I'd typically aim to start the system rolling off around 40-50Hz if you want to achieve flat in-room response. The best method is to budget for room measurement and dynamic equalization capability because every room is a little different. The Velodyne SMS-1 is a good tool that allows you to shoot your in-room measurement and gives you several bands of PEQ to shape the response for both the electronic equalization of the subwoofer/box and adjust for the room. But keep in mind, there is no way to get substantial SPL down low out of a small driver. The smaller the box you start with the more power it is going to require and the less ultimate SPL you are going to achieve.

BTW: I'd recommend Mark's work also. He understands high-output low bass. I've never had a chance to hear the Submersive but I've known Mark for several years and he is a sick bass-head.

MaxCast · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 12:42 am »

Quote from: Imperial on 26 Oct 2008, 08:39 pm

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(There is a Norwegian sub that looks like this one as well - it's called the Ragnarok, and it is very accurate)
(Come to think of it, a lot of subs do look like this, they are not equals all of them)

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DEEEEEEPEEER!!!! Bork bork bork! aa

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Imperial

I love that chef.

Imperial · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 12:58 am »

Well... I thought since the Swedish chef is really SUB-par standard anyway...
I could play a little joke with him as a subwoofer...

"to down a meatball sub?" aa - You now, the meat ball, Woof It Down...

(Deeper... bork bork bork)...

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Imperial (doing his best Jeff Goldblum impersonation..)

chgolatin2 · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 02:53 am »

Nothing comes close to JL Audio subs NOTHING!!!