Seeking recommendations for my next subwoofers

2gumby2 · « **Reply #20 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 03:43 am »

I heard the smallest JL Audio sub at Revelation Audio in So. Cal last year and I thought it sounded O.K. for the music that was demonstrated on it. It didn't get much of a work-out from the dealer though. I didn't have my Bass Mechanik CD with me at the time to see what it would do. I'll query Mark Seaton on his designs. Thanks for Mark's link!

WerTicus · « **Reply #21 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 03:57 am »

I recommend the rythmik servo sub(s), they have a circle here.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #22 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 05:24 am »

for DIY, I'd be looking at 4 of these in H baffles: http://tinyurl.com/5uyo5c

to simply buy, I would second Hsu.

Both of these suggestions assume some limitation on funds.

Marbles · « **Reply #23 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 12:04 pm »

Quote from: 2gumby2 on 25 Oct 2008, 03:39 am

I also built two Rythmik Audio Servo subs, but they could not produce the SPLs I was looking for.

How about 4 Rythmik subs?
That should get the SPL's up an additional 6DB or so.

My 4 will look very similar to this one.

chgolatin2 · « **Reply #24 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 02:22 pm »

If your looking for economy and performance without breaking the bank here are a few options: Notice I said economy and performance, not audiophile

1) http://www.amazon.com/JBL-SUB12-12-Inch-500-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B000FBRC6Y/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225117121&sr=8-19

2) http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-10-Inch-Monitor-Subwoofer/dp/B0002KVQBA/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1225117121&sr=8-19

3) http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-Monitor-10-Inch-Subwoofer/dp/B00030CHQ2/ref=sr_1_41?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225117599&sr=8-41

4) http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-430-Watt-Down-Firing-Subwoofer/dp/B0000Y2WYS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1225117676&sr=8-2

JimJ · « **Reply #25 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 02:33 pm »

Quote from: 2gumby2 on 25 Oct 2008, 02:28 pm

Big Red Machine or anyone else - do you have contact information for Mark Seaton? It seems he has a good reputation for sub designs. I'll check out the other sub recommendations as well. The El-Pipe-Os look pretty cool, but I don't have the space for those. Certainly looks like a fun project though.

Yeah, I don't have space for anything that big either, but I can dream...

Seriously, though, DIY is such a good value for subs, especially as a beginning project. Or talk to a friend with a table saw and have them build an enclosure for you.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #26 on:** 27 Oct 2008, 03:48 pm »

A single Maelstrom with a pair of PRs in a 8 cubic foot box will spank every one of these suggestions. The only one that would do better is possibly Mark's beast with two sealed 15"s and then only in some ways, not all. Bass, especially the deep stuff requires air displacement, pure and simple. The average 12" driver has a cone area around 500 cm^2 and maybe 1.5"-2" of usable stroke. Since you need x4 amount of air displacement for every octave you drop, there IS no replacement for usable stroke and cone area.

The Maelstrom-X is around 1200 cm^2 of cone area, and each passive radiator is the same. The driver has a good 2.5-3" of usable stroke and the passives do too. The passives are what operate near tuning (the lower frequency) so you have more than 2400cm^2 of cone area where you need it the most. Just the passives alone are going to have more usable air displacement capability than five high-output 12" drivers. The driver & PRs only cost $550 and a great Velodyne amp, with room measurement capability and total equalization control is $1K.

Here is a picture of my 6.5" midwoofer on the cone of the Maelstrom-X. This gives you some visual scale.

2gumby2 · « **Reply #27 on:** 28 Oct 2008, 04:15 pm »

Kevin - Your Maelstrom project looks pretty good and I will be using two subs. In what ways would Mark's dual 15" sealed subs do better than your Maelstoms and what advantage might your Maelstroms have over his? The Definitive Technology Trinity subs have dual 14" drivers with four passive radiators so it seems they would have significant output as well. I've also looked at Acoupower drivers (www.acoupower.com), but it seems they do not have detailed cabinet construction designs for their drivers. I can follow directions to build, but I'm not a designer.

mcullinan · « **Reply #28 on:** 28 Oct 2008, 04:28 pm »

The JL Sub has probably the best reviews around. If they have a 30 dAY policy Id try one at home. <-- This would be my next sub if cash permits. I have an HGS-12 from Velodyne. 10 yrs old. Its awesome. Will pressurize the room and blow your eardrums if you need it to.
Doesnt call attention to itself and will blend really well with your main speakers
Mike

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #29 on:** 28 Oct 2008, 04:55 pm »

Quote from: 2gumby2 on 28 Oct 2008, 04:15 pm

Kevin - Your Maelstrom project looks pretty good and I will be using two subs. In what ways would Mark's dual 15" sealed subs do better than your Maelstroms and what advantage might your Maelstroms have over his? The Definitive Technology Trinity subs have dual 14" drivers with four passive radiators so it seems they would have significant output as well. I've also looked at Acoupower drivers (www.acoupower.com), but it seems they do not have detailed cabinet construction designs for their drivers. I can follow directions to build, but I'm not a designer.

It is speculation without measurements but generally, you are going to get more headroom from the dual 15"s high in frequency because that is where the system is power limited and the two 15"s will have a cone area advantage (800cm^2 x2 = 1600 cm^2 vs. 1200 cm^2). The two separate coils and motor structures will be more capable of dissipating heat so you have more ultimate headroom where the system is power limited (I'd guess > 35-45Hz).

Down low, these systems become mechanically limited. When you pass into that threshold the Maelstrom system will have an advantage due to the dual 18" PRs providing much of the output. I don't know the exact size of the dual 15" system but box size is really what sets the system efficiency down low. If you put more drivers in the box, and scale cone area accordingly you have to scale the box size in proportion to keep the same bandwidth. That is one of the fundamental issues with big driver in small box type systems. You loose bandwidth and to get it back you have to equalize (put more power into the driver) to get it back.

One other note, as you pass below the tuning frequency of the PRs (about 16-17Hz) the Maelstrom-X system would start to unload. Somewhere in the really low subsonic content the dual 15"s will overtake the Maelstrom system once again. You will have to have a subsonic filter on the PR system so that curtails some of the really low frequency output (say 14Hz & down). I don't really see the point of 10Hz bandwidth but a lot of people focus on that goal.

Of course if sealed is what you like, dual Maelstroms is an option. You would get more output than the dual 15" system easily. We all play by the same set of rules.

By facing the drivers in opposing directions you cancel out much of the cabinet vibration.

Also, if you look at the amplifier power necessary to drive these systems, you quickly reach the limits of your typical 15A breaker when pushing them to their limits. A single Maelstrom will soak up 2000-3000W in peaks. You have to consider what is practical in terms of amplifier power and the limits of your typical AC line. I know people upgrading to dedicated 30A breakers for their subwoofer system alone so once you get into this kind of territory, you have to consider all the factors. You also have to be careful to overdesign the system when heavily equalizing sealed systems. You are putting a lot more power into the voice coil and subwoofers are typically only about 1-2% efficient. If you put 1000W into the coil, 980-990W of it is dissipated as heat. That is a LOT of heat for a coil & former to handle. You have to be wise in your application of excessive equalization at high SPL.

2gumby2 · « **Reply #30 on:** 28 Oct 2008, 10:21 pm »

Kevin - Thanks for all the great information. It's helping me narrow my choices down. I think 16Hz would probably be adequate for my application, but I'm also looking for clean output, something my Bill Fitzmaurice designed Tuba Home Theaters just aren't doing. I already have two Dayton Audio HPSA-1000 sub amplifiers that I am using with my Tuba Home Theaters (PE# 300-810). Would these be suitable for the Maelstrom project? I know you recommended the Velodyne, but I'd rather not have to buy two more amplifiers if I can effectively use what I already have.

konut · « **Reply #31 on:** 29 Oct 2008, 12:09 am »

I saw something today that made me think of this thread.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/SPUD%20intro.pdf

And a thread on AVS dedicated to this.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1076691

Looks interesting!

jtwrace · « **Reply #32 on:** 29 Oct 2008, 02:04 am »

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60729.0

tex-amp · « **Reply #33 on:** 2 Nov 2008, 04:57 am »

I see Ascend Acoustics advertising a new line of Rythmik servo subs as of this week. Are these a new line to Rythmik or Ascend? From reading the Ascend forum it seems like Dave Fabrikant of Ascend had input on them. Anyone know? http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/subintro.html

2gumby2 · « **Reply #34 on:** 2 Nov 2008, 11:01 am »

As I learn more in my search for a subwoofer that will go very low, loud, and with quality output, it seems there is no replacement for displacement. The Laws of Physics still apply. So far, I've narrowed my search down to four selections - Conquest from Epik Subwoofers (www.epiksubwoofers.com), the A7-900 from Elemental Designs (www.edesignaudio.com), the Ultra PB13 from SV Sound (www.svsound.com), and the DIY Cable Maelstrom project. I'd be interested to hear opinions from anyone that has experience with these subwoofers.

jackman · « **Reply #35 on:** 2 Nov 2008, 01:58 pm »

I've checked out lots of sites but I have yet to find a commercial site that provides as much detail (measurements, designer notes, etc.) than Bambergaudio.com. Here is a link to Phil Bamberg's philosophy on subwoofers and why he feels a dual drone design is superior to sealed or ported. For the record, I have Phil's dual drone design and it produces some of the best bass I have heard:

PR design in general:
http://www.bambergaudio.com/drones_advantage.shtml

Series 5 notes:
http://bambergaudio.com/s5-w_design_notes.shtml

SPL Graph:
http://bambergaudio.com/xls_spl.pdf

The BESL room received great feedback from people who attended RMAF. I've yet to hear compact subs produce the kind of bass (articulate, powerful, not boomy, etc.) BESL's Series 5's produce. These subs are flat to 18hz.

drphoto · « **Reply #36 on:** 2 Nov 2008, 02:37 pm »

Hey Jack! Do you know if the Phil sells the sub alone? Does he still offer kits? I couldn't really tell from the website.

Send me a PM or email sometime and LMK how thing are going for you and the family.

doug s. · « **Reply #37 on:** 2 Nov 2008, 06:25 pm »

i am surprised no one has mentioned vmps - i still think my old upright-style larger subs are pretty hard to beat for music, especially considering the cost. these are one of the few components that i happily bought brand-new, cuz they were such a bargain, even when compared to diy/used, imo. and, i have heard the low-boy style, and they're not too shabby, either...

of course, the diy situation has improved a bit, since i bought my subs over ten years ago...

doug s.

zybar · « **Reply #38 on:** 2 Nov 2008, 06:52 pm »

Quote from: doug s. on 2 Nov 2008, 06:25 pm

i am surprised no one has mentioned vmps - i still think my old upright-style larger subs are pretty hard to beat for music, especially considering the cost. these are one of the few components that i happily bought brand-new, cuz they were such a bargain, even when compared to diy/used, imo. and, i have heard the low-boy style, and they're not too shabby, either... of course, the diy situation has improved a bit, since i bought my subs over ten years ago...

doug s.

VMPS hasn't been mentioned because the VMPS subs aren't in the same class as the others mentioned in this thread. aa

George

rydenfan · « **Reply #39 on:** 2 Nov 2008, 06:56 pm »

I have owned many different subs from both ID companies as well at B&M, and frankly for me nothing compares to my JL Audio Fathom F-113. The F-112 would be perfect for you. In a music only setting I believe you will get the best performance with a sealed subwoofer.