[Niteshade]

I realize that some people know exactly what they want and like and that's great. This post isn't really for people who are well settled and extremely content with their system.

Maybe a good way to start is with finding out what you want out of your music/entertainment system. The best way to obtain good, clean, unfiltered audio is with a tube amplifier. Tube amps can be made with zero to very little negative feedback, providing the advantage over many SS amps of 'loosing your speakers'. Loosing the speakers is an absolutely fantastic sensation brought about by an amp's ability to project the sound in front of the speakers and maintain an accurate sound field complete with pinpoint centering. It takes a very fast amplifier, without any destructive amounts of filtering to achieve these results. The speakers have to be able to keep pace with the amp as well.

There is a certain amount of tube phobia that needs to be addressed:
1. Different tubes can produce different tonalities.
The fact that the owner can replace their own tubes should be a huge plus in favor of tube amps! Get this- there are multiple versions of the same tube type, say the 6L6. Have fun and get a few sets to see which ones you like- get a set for every mood. Tube rolling is fun. I haven't heard of transistor rolling... I realize this isn't really a phobia- but it's a nice introduction to tube replacement.

2. Tubes need to be replaced often.
This is not true. Small signal tubes last for at least 5-10 years or more and power tubes can last just as long, maybe a little less. Besides, if the go bad- it's the perfect opportunity to try something new.

3. Tubes cost allot.
No- not really. Most tubes cost around $15.00 each. That goes for power tubes as well. I don't believe in spending mega bucks on vintage tubes for standard purposes. Collectors will spend mega-bucks on some of them, but understand it's NOT a necessity!

4. Tubes are a pain to bias, etc.
This is not the rule. There is the choice of automatic biasing. We make a semi-automatic DC biasing system that's incredibly simple to operate as well. For example, the bias control comes preset at the 12' O'Clock position on our NS-100. Just move it a little to the left or right to suit your tastes. No need to worry about voltages, current draw, etc..

5. Tube amps are EXPENSIVE!
Some of them are and some are not. Ours range from $475 to $7500. The average is around $1000 on our price scale, not including the Lamphear 120-2. I believe that average is about the same throughout the industry for amps running 20-50 watts/channel. OK- You may get more watts/dollar with many SS amps- but we're comparing apples to oranges in terms of sonic values in most (not all) cases. As someone mentioned in another thread: Why do some SS manufacturers say they're emulating tube sound?


Tube amplifiers should not be looked at as some exotic, esoteric amplification device. This is the notion we're trying to dispel. Part of why we're on this campaign is because I design and manufacture tube equipment. But the underlying reason why I choose this line of incredibly satisfying work is because tube technology has ALLOT to offer. Who could ever imagine that a machine that can be made with such a low parts count could perform so well? This is high-tech, not low tech. Time doesn't have anything to do with how advanced a component is. Many new technologies are __substitutes__ and not replacements for their superior brothers. Here in central NY we have a large canal system. Much of the machinery- the motors and switches are still original! That's what I call well designed and advanced.

[MJK]

Quotes from various Niteshade posts :

The best way to obtain good, clean, unfiltered audio is with a tube amplifier.

Different tubes can produce different tonalities.

Extremely transparent. High frequencies are not rolled off in the slightest, the midrange is full, but linear and pleasant. Bass is fast, abundant and accurate.

Due to the way the NS-100 is set up, tube rolling will provide different 'hues' of tonality. It's like having multiple tube amps in one. Different tubes have different characteristics and this amp will allow them all to display their characteristics flawlessly.

Tube amplifiers should not be looked at as some exotic, esoteric amplification device.

The first statement seems like it should be the goal of any amp. Accurate, clean, and unfiltered amplification of an input signal. What goes in comes out amplified.

This is followed by the standard tube rolling discussion points and the effect it can have on the sound coming from the speakers. So are any of these tube amps accurate? Accurate is not a word I would associate with tonal changes brought about by tube rolling. Seems like you are saying that they can be a source of coloration in your system and you believe this is a good thing. I wonder if getting the right combination of tubes to accurately reproduce an input signal is possible. If you change something in the signal chain that effects the sound, I would think that one configuration should be more accurate and one configuration is colored.

I am sorry, but I just don't buy into the tube amp purist approach. I do not believe that a well designed tube amp is any better or worse then a well designed solid state amp. If anything, the tube amp has the potential of being a significant source of coloration of the signal content applied to the speaker. In my way of thinking, this is not always an advantage but is something that should be recognized and a point of concern for the user when swapping out tubes.

Martin

[rajacat]

Martin,

Don't solid state amps also introduce coloration to  the audio signal? If they don't then they should all sound the same. I've had a number of  SS amps and they all have had their own particular sonic color. In fact one can change the coloration of a SS amps by just rolling capacitors. Hmm.... does this mean that the accuracy has changed? Caps do filter the sound and can change the tone. Maybe by rolling tube or caps we are adjusting the tone to make up for perceived deficiencies in our individual hearing patterns.

BTW is there a spec than can describe or predict if an amp will exhibit a favorable holographic sound field or is it just trial and error? Generally speaking do tube amps posses this quality to a greater degree than SS amps? 


-Roy

[Lyndon]

Rajacat said:

I've had a number of  SS amps and they all have had their own particular sonic color.

So true!  The difference in sound when I just switch my Pass Aleph clone to my Krell KSA-50 clone is very pronounced.
Though I like that 'soft sound' produced by the Aleph, it was the Krell that made my ProAc's snap to attention in detail and...BASS.

That said, I love my Eico ST-40 in the bedroom system, and have not had to change any tubes for 5 years of running.
(About an hour every evening).
Lyndon
First snow of the season in Salt Lake City!

[MJK]

Don't solid state amps also introduce coloration to the audio signal?

Roy,

Absolutely, my guess is everything in the audio chain and even the room adds or detracts something from the reproduction of a signal. I do not consider any addition or detraction a good thing and something to be minimized. So the use of tube rolling as a method for changing the tone of a tube amplifier does not seem to be an advantage in my opinion. The way it is stated by Niteshade it seems to be a dominant or very significant tweak for altering the amps performance. Why would that be good? Do you think the differences between SS amps is more or less than the differences introduced by rolling tubes?

Martin

[Niteshade]

Hello Martin,

Your points are justified and understandable. Tube rolling can either add or remove system coloration. In fact, it's the amp's (NS-100) total lack of colorizing agents that allows tube rolling to be a possibility. Nothing is ever perfect and having the ability to personally tune your system inexpensively is a boon to any owner.

Everything within an audio system, including the room and its contents has the capability to alter your sonic perception. All systems have to be set up and tuned. Tuning options are always positive and never negative.

Knowing that the amp itself starts out as a neutral device is important. It sets a base standard by which the various tube varieties can be used against.

Quote: "I do not believe that a well designed tube amp is any better or worse then a well designed solid state amp."

When speaking about the upper eschalons of both technologies, I believe the differences become less significant.

[Niteshade]

The differences between the various manufacturers of, say a 6L6 of the same output specification are minute, but some people are more sensitive to them than others. I do not believe you will find a night and day difference between two well constructed, similar-spec tubes. Going from a cheaply made tube to a decent one will produce noticeable performance results, especially at higher wattage outputs. 

[Daygloworange]

When speaking about the upper eschalons of both technologies, I believe the differences become less significant.

I agree. We ran a blind comparison of a number of amps in 2007. We had a number of controls put in place to ensure that it was a fair comparison. Participants had track sheets to take notes. Differences were heard, but no one could reliably pick out tubes vs solid state vs battery powered Tripath etc..



I'm definitely one of those that doesn't feel the need whatsoever to change from SS to tubes in my audio system.

But when it come to my guitar rig, you couldn't pry these from my cold dead hands. 




Cheers

[gstraley]

   First off let me state that I do agree that sonically there can be something special in the midrange that most solid state amps cannot even come close to doing compared to good tube amp. I also am a person in the camp that feels that a lot of solid state amps are difficult to listen to. Some are even highly regarded and positively reviewed. My experience with a lot of tube amps is that they are unable to control the woofers with my efficient 94 db. The midrange can be to die for but the bass and dynamic attack is missing in action.
   I personally like the sound of tubes but they do not fit my lifestyle. I have 3 problems with tubes in general. First, I generally listen for about a half hour at a time before I need to get back to other things that I need to do.  One problem with tube amps is that they take around 20 minutes to warm up to start sounding good. If you leave your tube amps on all of the time you will go through output tubes every other month. A lot of times I do not plan out ahead of time when I am going to be listening. So the option of turning it on a 1/2 ahead of time will not always work for me. So that gives me 10 minutes of quality listening time. With a solid state amp the unit is on all of the time and is ready to go within 5 minutes or sooner.
    Second I find that when I owned tube amps about once a year a tube would blow out. It would also take out a capacitor and/or a resistor along with it. Now the amp has to go back to the manufacture or some competent technician that you have confidence in to repair it. For some reason it seems to take them at least a month to fix it and get it back to you. So now unless you have a back up amp you are with out music for a month or so. Then when it comes back it will take some time for the new parts they just installed to break in. I feel that there is a reliability issue with tubes in general which causes the amps to be unreliable. Just about every guy that I know that has tube amps has had problems with them and had to send them back to get fixed. The only guy I know that has not had this problem changes amps every year or so.
     Third you say that you do not need to roll expensive NOS tubes. You must not be an obsessive compulsive audiophile which I fall into that category and lot of other audiophiles that I know fall into. Once you hear the difference better sounding tubes can make you have to keep trying other tubes to find the ones that sound the best to you. Like you mentioned the cost of those tubes can become expensive. Not to mention the tubes that you tried and did not like. Most guys I know have boxes of tubes that they bought that did not work as well as ones they settled on.
   If there is a reasonably priced (less than $3k) tube amp that could control the bass on my speakers and give me the dynamic attack, be reliable and be able to find good sounding tubes that last and do not break the bank, I would reconsider a tube amp if it has the magic that I have heard some tube amps have in the midrange.

[BobRex]

Greg, I don't know what tube amps you were using, but I used a conrad johnson MV75A (then upgraded to A1) for almost 20 years and never, repeat never, blew a tube.  I would replace the tubes every 5 or so years.  As far as service went, I replaced the power switch once, and occasionally a fuse would blow.  During this time I also used a PV2ar and a PV5, neither of which blew any tubes either, although I did have to replace a ps diode on the PV5.  I've been using a Joule Electra LA100MK3, a Herron VTPH-M1, and Welborne Moondog 2A3 SET amps since 2001.  In the past year I have replaced tube sets on each of these with only 1 tube failure - a KR 2A3 went south.  I did have to repair one amp after a lighning strike, but that's it.  So since the early 1980s (25+ years) I have had only one tube blow!  Sounds to me like well designed equipment is reliable, you just have to know what to buy!

[konut]

Rather than repeat the well made points by MJK, DGO, and gstraley, I would like to ask Niteshade why you feel compelled to convert  those who likes SS amps to tube amps? Most of the geezers, and geezer wannabes, who frequent AC have made up their minds long ago about this choice. I am content to let people enjoy what they like without having to prosthelitize my views. Maybe you should have posted this in The Starting Block.

[Jim N.]

So we have someone who designs tube amps trying to convert people from solid state to tubes?

I am shocked, shocked

What next, people who love pasta cooking an Italian meal for their friends?

Dispelling myths about tubes is a good thing IMO but it is a twin edged sword....

[jimdgoulding]

I use an ARC line stage in front of some a/ab transistor amps (4 of the little buggers built in to my speakers).  Replaced the tubes a while ago and heard a bit more warmth that is enjoyable to me.  I use Sovtek 6922 tubes and that's what I replaced.  Tried some PaaNo's a while back and remember this quality.  Sovtek's seem to vary a bit if I'm not just being neurotic.  So, how does one nail down consistency in tubes.  Anybody with advice?  I would appreciate it, really.  What preamp tubes do you absolutely love?

[Niteshade]

"Rather than repeat the well made points by MJK, DGO, and gstraley, I would like to ask Niteshade why you feel compelled to convert  those who likes SS amps to tube amps? Most of the geezers, and geezer wannabes, who frequent AC have made up their minds long ago about this choice. I am content to let people enjoy what they like without having to prosthelitize my views. Maybe you should have posted this in The Starting Block."

That's a good point- but let me answer that with a quote of my own from the thread's beginning:

"I realize that some people know exactly what they want and like and that's great. This post isn't really for people who are well settled and extremely content with their system."

So- I'm not trying to try and convert those folks who are well settled and comfortable with their systems.  I will put something like this into that forum for the fun of it.

My main objective is to get people who have the jitters about tube equipment to not be so apprehensive about trying it out.

[pbrstreetgang]

I use an ARC line stage in front of some a/ab transistor amps (4 of the little buggers built in to my speakers).  Replaced the tubes a while ago and heard a bit more warmth that is enjoyable to me.  I use Sovtek 6922 tubes and that's what I replaced.  Tried some PaaNo's a while back and remember this quality.  Sovtek's seem to vary a bit if I'm not just being neurotic.  So, how does one nail down consistency in tubes.  Anybody with advice?  I would appreciate it, really.  What preamp tubes do you absolutely love?

Advice? If they are 6922s then then you can find a lot of Sovteks in my trashcan. Whan I had ARC linestage I liked BBs If you are patient you can find good ones for 100 a quad.

[Niteshade]

I use 12AX7, 12AU7 and 6SN7 small signal tubes only in all my designs. I like the Ei 12AX7 & AU7 series as well as the Electro Harmonix 12AX and AU tubes. Most of the tubes I end up ditching have too much filament EMI or are gassy and make hissing, popping, etc.. noises. I have never had sonic issues with any tube that works 100%.

[jimdgoulding]

Street-  I don't know what BB stands for.  Please tell me and where I might purchase.  What was your problem with the Sovteks?  I take it the BB's (?) are superior in your experience.  Please explain more.  Thanks.

[jon_010101]

Street-  I don't know what BB stands for.  Please tell me and where I might purchase.  What was your problem with the Sovteks?  I take it the BB's (?) are superior in your experience.  Please explain more.  Thanks.

He is referring to Amperex Bugle Boys... FWIW, I have had noise problems with them, and prefer Tungsram tubes.  6922s are a strange bunch. 

[2gumby2]

When I owned a vacuum tube amplifier, I needed to be careful about what speakers to mate it with. But with my Audio by Van Alstine Ultra 550 tube-solid state hybrid, I can run any speakers I want. I am very satisfied with this amp.

[Niteshade]

When I owned a vacuum tube amplifier, I needed to be careful about what speakers to mate it with. But with my Audio by Van Alstine Ultra 550 tube-solid state hybrid, I can run any speakers I want. I am very satisfied with this amp.

That's pretty much true with any high power amplifier, as long as it's rated for 75 watts or more per channel. I still prefer speakers that are at least 92db efficient even with high power amps.