[Mariusz]

...............but away, nice system and love the Steve's digital approach. 
If you are reading it Steve, I am very close to have another conversation with you.
This time - all about finalizing the details and few questions.....or more like advise seeking "Q"s. aa

If you're talking about Steve from Emperical and the Off-Ramp 3, I'm going to be buying one myself.  Both Chris and I thought it was significantly better than a full-modded SB3.

Yes, however if it is going to be off ramp3 or something else......I am not yet 100% sure.
My option is either Sonos (which I have) or Macbook that will feed Isabellina (Red Wine Audio DAC that is build in my preamp. Coax, optical, BNC and USB ins).
I have visited Steve's room during 2008 CES and was very impressed.

Mariusz

[woodsyi]

Balanced Power:  I met the infamous Turbo.  He is actually cool dude who dresses well.  He had an interesting monitor design that sounded very good.  Nothing extraordinary but well balance sound throughout. 

Would you admit that you have bias against the amps and front-end we were using?  You did comment on that to me while listening ...

I'm not asking to cast any shadow on comments you might make, but because Chris and I are looking to go a different direction for next year and talked all weekend about what we should use to help project a more accepted first impression.  Neither of us are big tube fans, but we're both thinking we need something glowing up front so that people won't have their mind made up before sitting down.

Ryan,

I do have a tube bias but it's because they consistently give me more enjoyment.  I also use an Acuphase class A amp which I like.  I also use ICE amp monoblocks on my woofers because they are great at that.  But I don't use the same ICE amp on my mid/high because they suck at it.  I don't use my tube amps on my woofers either for the same reason. 

I don't conciously prejudge any gear.  I had Steve's I2S off ramp.  I still have his Pace Car with my SB3 and Northstar transport.  I wouldn't knock you for digital front end because I know they are good.  I would be glad to report different findings if you want to send them to me and I find them irresistable with my amps. 

[lonewolfny42]

For me it was just the opposite. I was more impressed with the Cirrus speakers given they were driven by the ICE amps fed by your lap top. I would love to hear them driven by something - shall we say - more refined.  But seeing they sounded as good as they did, I have little doubt they will sound over the top when driven by higher quality amplification and a fancy ass source.

And at their price point I would say they did sound exceptional.

Thanks for saying that ... the idea we had was a "recession system" that still sounds fantastic.  I just don't know if it turned people off.  For example, Chris (BPT founder) is friends with Michael Fremer.  They spoke literally right outside our door, Michael said he'd come in for a listen, but didn't and all I can assume is because we were too 'ghetto' for him.  We did get more requests for formal reviews than I'll have any chance of accomodating, I guess that's good.

Hard to know what to do in order to appeal to a value market, but not be looked down on by the rest.  So honestly any input would be appreciated.  We ran computer audio the Off-Ramp, into a TacT pre, into ICE amps ... does seeing an all 'digital' stack influence your opinion, should we put some tube/analog gear up front to alleviate that?

Ryan....

MF may have run out of time...these shows go fast.

He is a big vinyl fan.....and not much for digital amps.

But....who knows..

I thought the system was good....

                        Chris

[AB]

For me it was just the opposite. I was more impressed with the Cirrus speakers given they were driven by the ICE amps fed by your lap top. I would love to hear them driven by something - shall we say - more refined.  But seeing they sounded as good as they did, I have little doubt they will sound over the top when driven by higher quality amplification and a fancy ass source.

And at their price point I would say they did sound exceptional.

Thanks for saying that ... the idea we had was a "recession system" that still sounds fantastic.  I just don't know if it turned people off.  For example, Chris (BPT founder) is friends with Michael Fremer.  They spoke literally right outside our door, Michael said he'd come in for a listen, but didn't and all I can assume is because we were too 'ghetto' for him.  We did get more requests for formal reviews than I'll have any chance of accomodating, I guess that's good.

Hard to know what to do in order to appeal to a value market, but not be looked down on by the rest.  So honestly any input would be appreciated.  We ran computer audio the Off-Ramp, into a TacT pre, into ICE amps ... does seeing an all 'digital' stack influence your opinion, should we put some tube/analog gear up front to alleviate that?

If I were to admit to having reservations about your set up (and I am not) I would say it was not the digital aspect of the front end (What's an Accuphase or Ayre CDP if not digital front ends?) but the DSP nature of the front end. I know that DSP is becoming more and more important to getting good sound out of system and room but I just don't like auditioning speakers with DSP involved. I want to hear the speakers straight from the source without any correction applied. If great speakers sound like crap then, then there is something wrong with the synergy of the system. I want to hear your speakers sounding as best as you can get them to sound and I am skeptical when I see a TACT or a Behringer in the stack.

I know the Tact was used as your Dac and your crossover for the subs and that there was no FR correction used but on Sunday when I thought the system sounded different you explained you had adjusted the subs output down a few db. You were just tweaking your sound. Others move their speakers around or try different cables, you drop the subs output a bit and get the same result. Right? Right. But I want to hear the speakers not the TAct.

I sat and listened happily to your and Chris' system three or four times during RMAF but if I saw an Ultramizer in your room, even I would have walked out. 

To answer your question whether tube amps and/or a more conventional source might make your speakers appeal to a larger audience I would say a system built to produce the best possible sound is the way to go.   Do you think you could have a better sounding system using tubes and a TT?
I think your set up sounded great but I would like to hear the speakers through tubes and a TT too. But that's just me.

Anyway...I am curious what others think.

Is adding DSP to a system a cheat or is DSP just another way to achieve system synergy?

Probably a topic for a different thread.

[Vapor Audio]

If I were to admit to having reservations about your set up (and I am not) I would say it was not the digital aspect of the front end (What's an Accuphase or Ayre CDP if not digital front ends?) but the DSP nature of the front end. I know that DSP is becoming more and more important to getting good sound out of system and room but I just don't like auditioning speakers with DSP involved. I want to hear the speakers straight from the source without any correction applied. If great speakers sound like crap then, then there is something wrong with the synergy of the system. I want to hear your speakers sounding as best as you can get them to sound and I am skeptical when I see a TACT or a Behringer in the stack.

I know the Tact was used as your Dac and your crossover for the subs and that there was no FR correction used but on Sunday when I thought the system sounded different you explained you had adjusted the subs output down a few db. You were just tweaking your sound. Others move their speakers around or try different cables, you drop the subs output a bit and get the same result. Right? Right. But I want to hear the speakers not the TAct.

I sat and listened happily to your and Chris' system three or four times during RMAF but if I saw an Ultramizer in your room, even I would have walked out. 

To answer your question whether tube amps and/or a more conventional source might make your speakers appeal to a larger audience I would say a system built to produce the best possible sound is the way to go.   Do you think you could have a better sounding system using tubes and a TT?
I think your set up sounded great but I would like to hear the speakers through tubes and a TT too. But that's just me.

Anyway...I am curious what others think.

Is adding DSP to a system a cheat or is DSP just another way to achieve system synergy?

Probably a topic for a different thread.

Thanks for the feedback ... I've said the same to Chris about the TacT, and it possibly making people think we're using processing when we're not.  I know you don't get enough time to explain things, and initial response is usually what they walk out with.  So the people that only sit down for a song and don't ask might very well walk out thinking we're doing all sorts of EQ'ing.

Sunday morning we came into the room and Chris said to me "I think we have too much bass on the monitors".  I just said whatever, sounded good to me.  So he made a new setting, but with xover at 50hz instead of 55hz ... and about 1 db less to the subs, then switched between them on the fly.  I thought it sounded better with the lower sub setting, but I think I remember you saying it sounded better the day before.  But didn't I also play two crappy tracks for you on Sunday to start?  I should have known not to play tracks I hadn't heard before for somebody. 

Hey, you know your sub probably has a volume knob on the back too    We didn't do anything with the TacT that the volume knob can't do, just saying.  Didn't we also play them for you without subs?  The tall ribbons though, they HAD to have full room correcting and EQ'ing to work.  I think we both tried to make that clear to anyone who heard them.

Are there better amps than the ICE stuff, definately!  Would a TT improve on our source setup?  That I'd have a harder time believing.  One thing Chris and I agree on is to keep the stack of gear as visually unobtrusive as possible, a tall stack right in the middle of the image is very distracting ... so I can't see us spinning vinyl.  The right tube gear though, no reason why we wouldn't give that a shot.

Ultramizer, hahaha!

[ltr317]

Here's my take on the show:

General Impressions:  A mix of old and new technologies: squeezebox vs analog turntables and tape decks.  There were quite a few turntables at the show.  Analog is making a minor comeback.  There were even two or three reel-to-reel tape decks.  A lot of rooms were using a stock or modified squeezebox as the source.  Generally, the sound quality was better than the CES, T.H.E. show, and Stereophile shows that I attended in past years.  There were some unusual designs, especially with loudspeakers.  Many loudspeaker cabinets were clad in exotic and expensive wood veneers, and the finishes on most of these were exquisite.  

I didn’t have enough time to experience every room (estimate 80% of exhibits), but of the rooms I attended there were nine or ten systems that stood out for me.  I have and have had both tube and solid state equipment.  My audio preference/taste tends to be slightly warm of neutral tonally, but at the same time enjoying good detail and resolution.  The reader should bear that in mind when reading my comments that follow.  

Very Expensive: The system that “rocked my boat” the most was Swiss Da-Vinci electronics driving Scottish A.R.T. loudspeakers, imported by the Tangram audio group.  Listening to CDs, what I heard was an absence of digital glare and electronic artifact that I normally experience in almost all digital playback equipment to a lesser or greater degree.  While that in itself is commendable for the listener who likes the “analog sound,” what sold me was the amount of detail and resolution I was hearing from track after track of the demos I played.  The system blended warmth and musicality, with enough resolution and detail, to recreate a presentation that I was listening to the performer(s) live, and not an electronic device.  I played “Labour of Love” by Frente (Angie Hart), and “Falling or Flying” by Grace Potter and the Nocturnals, and “Wheels on Fire” by the Magic Numbers.  All three vocals sounded as real as I have ever heard them.  Ed Cramer (fellow Acer) played a Dayna Kurtz and Noah Jones duet, and a Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds song and had the same reaction.  The Da-Vinci turntable produced equally satisfying results.  

Expensive: To my ears, two other systems sounded top-notch: 1) the Merlin loudspeakers, Joule Electra electronics and Cardas cable room; 2) Avalon loudspeakers, VTL electronics, and Cardas cable room.  They both gave a more hi-fi presentation than the Da-Vinci/ART system but both systems were still a thoroughly enjoyable listening experience.  The Merlin/Joule/Cardas combo was slightly closer to neutral than the Avalon/VTL combo.  Both Ed and I played the same songs that we used in the Da-Vinci/ART system.  The Audio Notekit room was closely behind these two systems, and had the best dynamic range of any system at the show.  I played the first four minutes of Beethoven’s Piano Sonata No.23 (Appassionata), performed by Mari Kodama, which has the greatest dynamics (from soft to loud) of any cd in my collection.  I almost fell out of my seat when it went from very soft to extremely loud.  I’ve never heard a greater dynamic difference before in any system.  Vocals were not as real sounding as the previously mentioned systems though still very nice.  

Relatively Expensive: There were several very nice sounding systems:  1) Roberts Acoustics/Vincent electronics had great punch and bass impact, great with the rock selections Ed and I played. 2) ACI/Korato/GIK/DH Labs room had a well balanced and musical sound.  Very engaging sound.  3) Selah Audio/Moon Audio had extremely good treble and mid-range.  Vocals sounded great generally, except for an occasional slight brightness.  I think the room cause that though. 4) VMPS/Boulder Cable/GIK room sounded similar to the ACI/Korato room.  Well balanced and engaging sound.  There were a few other rooms that sounded really nice but I forgot to take notes:  Salk/Van Alstine , Studio Electric/Benchmark Media, Triode Corp.      
    
Affordable: Virtue, the $249 Model One amp is a great value.   Jolida had a reel-to-reel deck and played The Doors, “The End” which sounded great with their equipment.  Grant Fidelity had good and musical sounding equipment in their room.  

The most disappointing system/component: Kef Muon loudspeaker.  It sounded bland no matter what music was played.  Maybe the room was too small for such a large speaker.  I don’t know.  I had heard a smaller Kef speaker at the NYC Stereophile two years ago, and I thought it was one of the best speakers at that show.  

The most unusual:  Evanui Signature loudspeaker by Yokohama Baysidenet.  ET has landed.  The sound was okay, but I didn’t hear any real bass.  This is not surprising since only a single 3” driver is used without a surround and housed in a bowling pin shape cabinet.  For $60,000 though, I want bass!  Workmanship is top notch.  It looks like it takes many labor hours to construct the cabinet.  

Paul

[AB]

Thanks for the feedback ... I've said the same to Chris about the TacT, and it possibly making people think we're using processing when we're not.  I know you don't get enough time to explain things, and initial response is usually what they walk out with.  So the people that only sit down for a song and don't ask might very well walk out thinking we're doing all sorts of EQ'ing.

Sunday morning we came into the room and Chris said to me "I think we have too much bass on the monitors".  I just said whatever, sounded good to me.  So he made a new setting, but with xover at 50hz instead of 55hz ... and about 1 db less to the subs, then switched between them on the fly.  I thought it sounded better with the lower sub setting, but I think I remember you saying it sounded better the day before.  But didn't I also play two crappy tracks for you on Sunday to start?  I should have known not to play tracks I hadn't heard before for somebody. 

Hey, you know your sub probably has a volume knob on the back too    We didn't do anything with the TacT that the volume knob can't do, just saying.  Didn't we also play them for you without subs?  The tall ribbons though, they HAD to have full room correcting and EQ'ing to work.  I think we both tried to make that clear to anyone who heard them.

Are there better amps than the ICE stuff, definately!  Would a TT improve on our source setup?  That I'd have a harder time believing.  One thing Chris and I agree on is to keep the stack of gear as visually unobtrusive as possible, a tall stack right in the middle of the image is very distracting ... so I can't see us spinning vinyl.  The right tube gear though, no reason why we wouldn't give that a shot.

Ultramizer, hahaha!

You guys did a great job explaining everything in the system to me during RMAF. You played a track or two without the subs. I don't remember any crappy tracks but we clicked through a bunch to find one we all liked. I sat with Chris and listened to the ribbons too. That was a blast. As for a tweak here or a tweak there - I think I said the same thing in five other rooms too - "What'd you do? It sounds different today."

Maybe the answer is to have a tubes and class D in the room next time, have some fancy ass source and the streaming solution too. Make everybody ask, "When can I hear them on/with the XXX"

Also, I was really surprised at how many people would walk into a room, LOOK at the gear and just walk out, never listening to a note. I swear it struck me as the strangest thing. In any room I visited there would be 5 people in 30 minutes who did this - at least. I guess their expectations weren't met when they LOOKED at the gear. Weird. At least to me. I would just ask what was up and at least listen for a while.

[stereocilia]

I thought the Jaton room with Operetta amps sounded great, very live.  Although, I was a little put off by the open-cover amp revealing black covers to hide the secret technology which is said to produce 300 W of Class A with very little heat.  I can understand being protective and what not, but I had to laugh when somebody said after leaving that room, "Ancient Chinese secret, huh?" just like the 1970s water softener commercial.

[twitch54]

Sorry gents I put this pic / write link in the wrong place, anyways here's what some of us "Logan Nuts" had to offer up.......

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7410

[Bob in St. Louis]

Also, I was really surprised at how many people would walk into a room, LOOK at the gear and just walk out, never listening to a note.

Two words:

Body Odor

Bob 

[Vapor Audio]

I thought the Jaton room with Operetta amps sounded great, very live.  Although, I was a little put off by the open-cover amp revealing black covers to hide the secret technology which is said to produce 300 W of Class A with very little heat.  I can understand being protective and what not, but I had to laugh when somebody said after leaving that room, "Ancient Chinese secret, huh?" just like the 1970s water softener commercial.

I thought the Jaton room sounded very nice as well.  And they were right across the hall from us, so I got to listen quite a bit.  I've found that many of the Chinese designed speakers are a bit thin in the bass, and the Jatons were as well ... but nothing necessarily wrong with that.  Honestly I prefer lean bass myself.  I thought the Jaton speakers were quite articulate and accurate, and they were more dynamic that I expected. 

AB - so are you the guy who brought his wife on Sunday?  Or am I thinking of the wrong person?  It definately did change sound all on it's own from day to day, every component had something that was still breaking in.  I'm still shocked at how well those $1 per watt amps sounded.  Maybe next year we'll just stick them in some massive case with lots of polished brass and bolt heads 

[arthurs]

Also, I was really surprised at how many people would walk into a room, LOOK at the gear and just walk out, never listening to a note.

Two words:

Body Odor

Bob 

Man, we were in the linkwitz room and someone cleared the place...most awful moment of the show for me....

[Vapor Audio]

Also, I was really surprised at how many people would walk into a room, LOOK at the gear and just walk out, never listening to a note.

Two words:

Body Odor

Bob 

Ha, not it OUR room.  Does this guy look like he smells?

[woodsyi]

Continuing from a page back.

Hansen/Balanced Audio/dCS:  I heard good things about this room so I went in on Sunday morning.  May be it was the heightened expectation but it sounded a little blasé.  I couldn't find anything wrong even when listening for it but the music just didn't gel together.  For this kind of money I want some emotional pull but there wasn't any. 

Lansche/Wavac/Continuum Criterion:  Hey, this is the only room where I crossed path with Lonewolf and Captain Humble.  They were playing Carmen overtures.  I was really getting into the music when the requester stopped the music to leave.  I was a little discombobulated when Chris nudged me to play my record.  Once again I got to listen to the second side of Bax' 6th (Lyritas).  I got lost in the music, again.  I was emotionally drained after.  I decided then that I am not going to listen to Bax again for a while.  The whole inner conflict that Bax resolves in this symphony is just too much emotions to relive one after another.  Anyway, I would take this system home....  ....if I win a lottery.    I am going to keep track of the plasma tweeters now. 

McAlister Audio:  It's been a while since I heard the Acoustats.  They were singing in this room.  I didn't catch all the different models he had out there but the ones driving the stats were doing great.  When electrostats are driven by good tubes with the right impedance, they can get really special with voices and acoustic music.  They were doing that.  The bass wasn't the best but it was good enough to give a good foundation. 

Soundsmith:  Peter did a fabulous retip job on my ZYX Airy 3 and I really wanted to listen to the Strain Gauge Cartridge system.  I say a system since phono stage comes mated with the cartridge.  Some one was playing an acoustic recording of the Who (or was it just Daltry?).  It sounded good but I wasn't too keen on Daltry's singing.  Then he played a guitar solo (Soundsmith recorded) that was really good like you were sitting right in the room.  I wanted something more dynamic and he put on a orchestral piece that did just that.  The monitors he used loaded this room just right and the Strain Gauge set up really worked in this room.  I wish he had a good conventional analog pickup there to compare.  Anyway, I left very impressed.  Maybe somewhere down the road, I may go with the Strain Gauge....

Sander's Sound System (10B ultrastats/ESL amp/Tascam SS-R1):  At the end of the day Saturday, I got a chance to really audition this set up for nearly one half of an hour alone with Roger Sanders.  No fancy front end here.  Just the music (.WAV ?) files loaded on a CF card playing on a stock pro gear.  There must have been enough output voltage to drive the ESL amp directly.  The speakers are actively biamped with a built in digital crossover that is housed in the woofer amp that comes with the speakers.  I was really impressed with the dynamic cones that kept up with the ultra fast stats.  Apparently, he uses custom made woofers with low Q and a TL woofer enclosure along with a digital (dsp?) crossover to achieve this seamless integration.  I really enjoyed the audition.  The sound was faster than the Acoustats in the McAlister room.  It may have been a bit leaner too but it still conveyed soprano voices (O Mia Babbino Caro) without any shrillness.  I still use his old ESL amp on my Soundlabs but this version is faster.  These speakers just give you that feeling that they can do anything.  They will slam with thunderous impact or be as gentle as a zephyr buffeting  a baby's cheek.  I will need to check out how the built in digital crossover works with an analog source but Sander's 10B is a possibility in the future.   

Rethm Saadhana:  I was really looking forward to these speakers but something was off in the room when I was there.  I must have been the room as the bass was flabby.  With mushy bass, the mids and highs just don't click in.  I would love to have heard these in a better room.  They are not as big as I envisioned. 

Rocky Mount Audio Big Horns:  These were the surprise pleasure of the show for me.  This local company from Littleton, CO has got a heck of a bass horn that is really musical.  To boot, he was running it with midfi and vintage gear.  Gerrard TT, Adcom preamp, vintage McIntosh tube amps, and cheap wires.  The folded horn is a work of beauty and I would love to try these on some of my amps.  They would be a pain to ship though....

Redwine/WLM:  I got to meet Vinnie.  Boy, has Vinnie come a long way since he first appeared on AC.  Vinnie was gracious to demonstrate his phonostage by ABing against his DAC.  Since both units have very close output voltage, we just had to synchronize the vinyl and the digital source and switch back and forth.  There is a house sound with Redwine.  Among the various red wine varietals, I would say Vinnie's redwine is a Pinot Noir -- silky, floral, layered and tasty.  The vinyl (Schroeder Model2/Allaert) soared more than the DAC in delicate high passages but there were more like than different.  They both portrayed music in a lyrical flow and while the details were there, they were not etched.  Redwine is aptly named as the house system is very liquid.  If I must criticize, I would like to have heard the system on a bigger pair of speakers. 

In looking back, attending the show has given me a sense of what kind of sound I like and how that may be different from others.  In some ways it's an inward journey to your audio soul.  All in all I had a great time and I just have to do it again next year.  And I am going to get Friday off for the next one.  Thanks for reading.

[marklivia]

I agree- those Lansche speakers were incredible, best in show. Simply stunningly beautiful presentation of music. In a show situation it's extremely hard to get past really good stereo into "on my God" territory. That room did it.   I think that you could pair them w/ much more reasonably priced electronics and have world classe sound.
Another good one was the Wilson Benesch (sp) coupled to the new DeHaviland amps.

[mcullinan]

Also, I was really surprised at how many people would walk into a room, LOOK at the gear and just walk out, never listening to a note.

Two words:

Body Odor

Bob 

Man, we were in the linkwitz room and someone cleared the place...most awful moment of the show for me....

lol...

[ltr317]

Also, I was really surprised at how many people would walk into a room, LOOK at the gear and just walk out, never listening to a note.

Two words:

Body Odor

Bob 

 
Bob,

  Good thing I wasn't eating anything while reading this.  The food particles would have been all over my body!

Paul

[Bill Baker]

Rethm Saadhana:  I was really looking forward to these speakers but something was off in the room when I was there.  I must have been the room as the bass was flabby.  With mushy bass, the mids and highs just don't click in.  I would love to have heard these in a better room.  They are not as big as I envisioned.

 

Just curious when you heard these speakers. There was an issue early on but was taken care and the system really came around. This was one of the rooms in which our Musica Bella Purity preamp debuted in.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Ha, not it OUR room.  Does this guy look like he smells?

Most definitely not Ryan. No way there's any bad smells in that room.
Especially when you're standing between about 13 running feet of Sharper Image Ionic Air Purifiers.
No way it could smell. 
{My apologies Chris. Please don't be mad at me.}

Bob

[Vapor Audio]

Ha, not it OUR room.  Does this guy look like he smells?

Most definitely not Ryan. No way there's any bad smells in that room.
Especially when you're standing between about 13 running feet of Sharper Image Ionic Air Purifiers.
No way it could smell. 
{My apologies Chris. Please don't be mad at me.}

Bob

Haha!  Your wit is especially sharp today I see ...