[Bill Baker]

 

Lastly, I wish people could express their opinions without using terms like "f*ck".  

 I am sure it will be deleted as soon as Wayne checks in.

[stlblue]

I don't see $6k worth of components...

While $6K does sound a bit high for my pocket book, how much do you think it costs J&J to make this heart stent:



It's a $5 billion/year business...think about it. It's all about relevant benefits to the consumer.

[Bob in St. Louis]

£6000 for a squeezebox........fuck me thats expensive!!!!!

I've sent your first post in The Sports Bar to the trash. This is what you've chosen for your next?  
At this rate your posts count will always be "1".  Please stop.

Everybody: Wayne is one of the classiest men I know. This is his place of business, Please don't trash his thread. He doesn't deserve this.
If something is beyond your financial means, that doesn't automatically make it worthy of your negative comments.
Wayne has designed the likes of a Ferrari or Lamborghini here. This is NOT your Fathers old Ford.
I do not have any Boulder products in my system, mainly due to the price. That doesn't mean I have the right to slam Wayne and his products.

As a fellow moderator here, I would be trimming off half this thread and sending to the trash. If it where mine.
My best wishes Wayne. I hate to see a man of your caliber having to deal with this.

My post doesn't belong here just the same as most of the recent posts, but I'm sorry, I couldn't stand to Wayne get bashed anymore.

Have some class people. You embarrass me.

Bob

[mcullinan]

I don't see $6k worth of components...

While $6K does sound a bit high for my pocket book, how much do you think it costs J&J to make this heart stent:



It's a $5 billion/year business...think about it. It's all about relevant benefits to the consumer.

True... my Dad is still around because of these. and he worked for J&J for 35 years. They dont roll like that anymore.
If I had an extra 6 K around Id give it a shot.
Mike
Mike

[SatoriGFX]

Ok.  I'll admit that we are talking about a hand built, "statement" product made by a boutique company for a niche market.  Maybe it sounds like a $6000 product too.  I might even "buy" one if it was as good as it's supposed to be (though I doubt I would ever get the chance to hear one as it's not available through retail outlets).  But, I think I would do so knowing I was paying a rather large premium to own such a statement product.  I've bought things in the past that were several times the price of similar but not quite as good products and had no regrets.

I apologize to Wayne if I was out of line.

Best of luck with the new product.

[F-100]

Let me ask you guys this question.

If a person take a $30K car (ex. Dodge Charger), hot-rodded with bunch of parts and a new custom paint job then try to sell it for $600K. For that kind of markup, would you buy this hot-rodded car or would you rather get a Ferrari?    ... You got to be insane not to get the Ferrari.  aa

[pjchappy]

Well, I wouldn't pay $30K for a Dodge anything.   

[tanchiro58]

Let me ask you guys this question.

If a person take a $30K car (ex. Dodge Charger), hot-rodded with bunch of parts and a new custom paint job then try to sell it for $600K. For that kind of markup, would you buy this hot-rodded car or would you rather get a Ferrari?    ... You got to be insane not to get the Ferrari.  aa

I got a chance to seat and drove a Ferrari in Europe once and liked a lot but... for hot rodded Dodge Charger... no way!!!

[PLMONROE]

Hay I just got back from RMAF where I has the opportunity to listen to Wayne's re-box. I think you will be hard put to find a comparable unit that accomplishes the same thing and sounds better for $6,000. On another note, although I may have missed it, I haven't seen any speculation what it costs to build the speakers I aw in another room that have a MSRP of $295,000!

[raov1]

Hi there,
  Let me first of all state that I'm not trying to start a flame-war or trying to steal a thread. I was looking around for a good DAC, an upgrade from my brick and ran into the chord QB DAC -
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/specs/QBD76.pdf
Looking at this I mean you are getting a bespoke DAC for 6-7K which makes me wonder if the squeezebox DAC is just over done and not worth it?
Here is  review in one of the mags:
http://bluebirdmusic.com/images/Chord%20QBD76%20RadioActive%20Review.pdf

My point is that there is a limit where one needs to stop research into products, I mean there is only that far you can drag a DAC chip or a product upto before something else overtakes it by leaps and bounds - I mean most people who post pro have no idea of the competition out there, come on if some one says its fine for a audio manufacturer to charge 6K for a product which is made from squeeze-box its a tough sell.

I've not heard the DAC and don't know its potential but in every way it beats this product hands down (and ALL DACs that use the same chips out there). Meaning when the entire country in in economic turmoil, there are few who will go and do the rightful wrong. I mean the best for Wayne, but this does not make financial sense.

As stated in one of the audio sites
Chord - "new QBD76 ($6,495, with an introductory special of $5,995) is the company's most technically advanced DAC. Building on the success of the award winning DAC64, the QBD76 now takes D/A conversion to a new level of performance not available in any other product. In addition a unique Bluetooth digital audio receiver allows users to stream high quality music wirelessly from a Bluetooth enabled phone, PDA or PC. Instead of using an off the shelf DAC chip, Chord designed their own using the newest Xilinx field programmable gate arrays. This state-of-the-art development platform provided Chord engineers with a staggering 1,250,000 logic gates with which to design their DAC, something not obtainable only a few years ago. Of note is that most DACs today employ only 30,000 logic gates. Thus, with over 40 times the development power, Chord engineers were able to control every aspect of their DAC's design and performance. The result is said to be a resolving power of 40dB more data than DACs using the best off the shelf chips. With its new design and updated WTA algorithm, the QBD76 achieves a signal to noise ratio greater than 120 dB, a dynamic range of 122dB, and less than 3pS clock jitter cycle to cycle. Furthermore, usability has been improved with the addition of a display and control via a microcontroller circuit. Input selection, phase and RAM buffer settings can all be changed using three buttons on the top panel. Configuration is clearly visible via the magnified display. There are two coax, two AES, two optical,one USB and one Bluetooth A2DP input"

[Rob S.]

Ok,  I"ve heard the Chord DAC, it's real nice.

So is Waynes'  new $6k front end.   It was Fantastic at RMAF.  Wayne definitely showcased his talents when he modd'ed almost everything in that system.  I found it priced less than Cary's SACD player (8K) in the Selah room which was also great.  Lots of rooms had expensive digital font ends and none really "spanked"  Waynes'.   I thought the DCS scarlatti  (Scaena Room at the Hyatt) was BETTER but it should have been since it's over 40k.

Rob S.

[zybar]

Ok,  I"ve heard the Chord DAC, it's real nice.

So is Waynes'  new $6k front end.   It was Fantastic at RMAF.  Wayne definitely showcased his talents when he modd'ed almost everything in that system.  I found it priced less than Cary's SACD player (8K) in the Selah room which was also great.  Lots of rooms had expensive digital font ends and none really "spanked"  Waynes'.   I thought the DCS scarlatti  (Scaena Room at the Hyatt) was BETTER but it should have been since it's over 40k.

Rob S.

Rob S.,

How do you know that one piece of gear spanked or was equal to other gear, in another in room, that is totally unfamiliar to you and most likely contains gear configurations you have never heard before?   

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but it is just plain silly to make statements (like the one above) about a specific pieces of gear under show conditions.  The best you can do is say you preferred room "x" over room "y"...

Based on my experiences with Wayne's work, I have no doubt about its quality and ability to sound very good...as others have said, the market will determine if it is priced properly.

I wish Wayne the best of luck and I am happy to hear that people liked his room at RMAF 2008.

George

[MaxCast]

My guess is that anyone complaining about a $6000 piece of equipment doesn't own a $6000 piece of equipment. 

[Wayne1]

WOW!

I go to RMAF for a few days and I find myself being tarred and feathers and hung in effigy  

Thanks you very much to brj, MaxCast, Hugh, Denny, Bob, Zybar and others who have tried their best to keep this thread on a more even keel.

$6000.00 for a "squeezebox" is very expensive. At this point there is very little squeezebox left in the "Re-Box"

I have been working towards this concept since the day I began modding the SB 4 years ago. All the small bits of knowlege gained in that time went into it.

I will offer an explanation of why I did what I did and why I priced it at this level. I am in no way forcing it down anyone's throat. You do not HAVE to buy a modded SB. So in that viewpoint I really don't understand so of the angry comments that has been tossed my way.

The best thing and most unique thing about the SB is the interface to a network. You can have a computer on anywhere in the house and still be able to stream music to any room with a SB. Where SlimDevices chose to cut back on design and components costs were in the power supply and analog output sections.

Unlike others people who work on the SB, I LISTEN first and to the unit when I am making changes. Looking at meters is all well and good. The measurements certainly help in the initial design stages. What a front end should be, IMHO, is an interface to musical enjoyment, not something that just measures great.

The Re-Box grew out of the desire to use even better components in the power supply section to address the concerns about all the noise being generated by the display and the internal switchers. I started down this path with the latest SB Enthusiast Digital mod where I ran different voltages from an external supply. Keeping the supply closer the the board doe improve things quite a bit. I also had been working on a newer main power supply that significantly improved on the Ultimate MKIV, but for a major increase in price.

Comments I have received in the past from my customers on my top mod were for the most part very positive. Some did want something with a little more sweetness and fullness that appears to be present in most high end tube gear. I contacted Jim Hagerman and arranged to use a variation on one of his designs for the prototype.

I also planned to use a HagClock in this unit. I still hope to be able to, but time ran out before RMAF to get it working to my satisfaction.

My design goal was to correct what I thought were the drawback to the SB product, the power supplies and the analog output. I do believe I have succeeded very well. Others may take the path of woking on the digital section. I feel the SB has a VERY good DAC chip and an adequate clock section. I did build a separate PS just for the digital input of the DAC chip and the clock circuit to isolate them from the noise of the network chips and the display. Another power supply just runs the analog section of the DAC chip. The third PS power the network functions and the display. All of the power supplies and hand built using EI core transformers. All of the circuit board work is point to point wired. All of the connections on and off the SB boadrd are using high quality, shielded, Teflon wire.

The analog output section consists of a high quality step up transformer, VERY EXPENSIVE V-cap and Mundorf Silver/Gold caps. The is a separate power transformer for the analog ouput. Two chokes in the main B+ the two additional chokes, one for each channels power. There there are two output transformers. Seven separate hunks of iron and copper which do add up in price.

The analog output section, if sold as a separate product, would easily fetch $2,000.00. The various power supplies used in the Re-box if sold as separate units would add up to over $3000.00. The chassis and faceplate and machining add $1000.00 to the price. I haven't even got to the mods done to the SB or the labor, wire, standoff, WBT Silver connectors used in it. I also haven't touched on the Bybees. I know this is another flashpoint topic, but I do hear substantial improvements when they are used in power supplies. I have 7) in the Re-Box including 2) Bybee Super Effect Purifiers. Black Magic and Voo-Doo perhaps, but they do allow more sound to come through, to my ears but they also raise the price of any product they are used in.

I received very good comments about the Re-Box and the room at RMAF. Many people were telling me the room had the best sound in the show. Especially considering the total system cost was about $20,000.00  Next door in the SP Tech room, that had some speaker cables that retailed for $5600.00    While I am sure they are very good, that number for speaker cable is past my personal point of diminishing returns. For some, it may be a bargain. The same thing can be said about the Re-Box. If you do not feel that the performance of the product justifies the price, fine, don't buy it. But please don't criticize something you have never heard or seen just because of price.

[Rob S.]

Zybar,
     Of course I should have been more specific about my preference for the "overall sound of system x over y" .  The point I wanted to make is I thought Waynes' system was fantastic.  I own wayne's SB3 modd'ed, w/ PSIV.   My thoughts (based on nothing concrete- since all rooms, room treatments, electronics, etc... are different) is that $6k compared to many other rooms seemed to be not outrageous. I have no idea what role the digital played in any of these systems-since I can't take them home to my measly system in my room, and system level match them and AB them in some sort of fair way....  I can only guess, in absolute terms.  Kinda makes this hobby a little tricky wouldn't you say?

Rob S.

[woodsyi]

I had a chance to monopolize Wayne and listen to his re-box in peace and quiet.  Apparently I locked the door behind me as we both heard a knock much later.   It is nice.  I am familiar with the VMPS 626 and Bolder Statement SB2 and their sound.  While I don't know how much of what I heard is due to Mike G.'s modded Behrenger crossover, I can say I heard something pleasing that I hadn't heard before.  I heard warmth that I hadn't heard before.  Being in a strange room and one that isn't as treated as my own, I can't comment on the resolution aspects (soundstage and clarity) but I can tell you that I heard warmer tones that are more pleasing to me than before.  I think the tube output implementation has to be a main reason for this.  I have tried tube buffer (Minimax) and Burson buffer after my Statement (older generation) SB2 and they weren't quite like this.  As for jitter reduction, I don't know why someone doesn't think Wayne is doing something about it.  What do you think all these different PS's and isolations are for?  I also have a modified SB3 with a reclocker and it resolves more details than my Statement SB2 but this may also have something to do with my 3k DAC that I use.  I think there are different ways to reduce jitter.  Wayne has gone with prevention rather than reclocking before a DAC.  I like the reclocking idea but Wayne may have cleaned up so much that there may not be that much improvement even if reclocking is added in the future.  The main draw of the re-box to me is the tubed output stage that has added warmth to voices and overtones to instruments.  I told Wayne that I definitely would like to hear it in my system.  As for the 6K price, the product and the market will determine the validity of the price.  I don't see why there should be an outcry over it before it has been heard.   For those who say that 6K just takes it out of consideration, there may be "lower" levels of the re-box with corresponding lower price offered as mentioned.

[maxwalrath]

I'm beating a dead horse here, but here's my 2 cents:

Check out the forums around here...some people have sold off five figure digital front ends to happily end up with Bolder's previous Statement level mods and power supply on the SB, and taken it further with lots of bells and whistles.  Most of these people are set for life, and call it the best digital they've ever heard after spending about $4k on it. 

Wayne's now taken things many steps further, made it look terrific, kept working with some great designers including AKSA and HagTech to bleed the last possible amount of performance out of the design...and kept everything in the same awesome looking box.

To those who have a problem with the pricing, think for a second.  Isn't RWA taking $30 chips and turning them into what some people call world class amplification at 100x the price?  Have you ever heard how good Bolder's SB mods are?  Does Wayne have the reputation of being a rip-off artist?  If the Bolder Rebox sounds better than the average $6k cdp, wouldn't you be a moron to buy the cdp?  If you don't even know how it sounds, aren't you just being rude? 

Modwright, Response Audio, Wayne and RWA have all had this kind thread crapping done to them, and it's always rude, and done by those who have never heard the products in question. 
 

[SatoriGFX]

My guess is that anyone complaining about a $6000 piece of equipment doesn't own a $6000 piece of equipment. 

That's a bit elitist and not necessarily the case.  I do not own any $6000 components at the moment but would have no problem, financially or ideologically, with paying that kind of money for one in the future.  In fact, I have one on my radar at the moment.

My initial concern with the price of this new component stemmed from what I perceived as poor value based on the picture and mods described in Wayne's first post.  It didn't look like a $6k product.  Now I've backpedalled a bit.  Perhaps I jumped the gun and perhaps this new re-boxed Squeezebox will be worth every penny of it's asking price.

I've already apolagized to Wayne in a previous post but I will reiterate.  I am sorry if I jumped the gun and misjudged the value of this product before I have had the chance to actually hear it.

[Wayne1]

Five of the Bybees are used in the power lines. The SE were placed at the AC inlet. Four others in the DC line. One was used in the signal ground.

[cruz123]

As for jitter reduction, I don't know why someone doesn't think Wayne is doing something about it.  What do you think all these different PS's and isolations are for?  I also have a modified SB3 with a reclocker and it resolves more details than my Statement SB2 but this may also have something to do with my 3k DAC that I use.  I think there are different ways to reduce jitter.  Wayne has gone with prevention rather than reclocking before a DAC.  I like the reclocking idea but Wayne may have cleaned up so much that there may not be that much improvement even if reclocking is added in the future. 

Can jitter be reduced via power supply mods?   My limited knowledge on this subject has led me to believe that jitter is caused by timing imperfections in the digital stream that can only be reduced by modifications to the clock.   I'm not trying to be a smart a** here, I'm simply asking a question that I don't know the answer to.

thanks