[SatoriGFX]

I agree with Josh, you guys are being rude.

This is a public forum, but this is Bolder's circle.

And, since you guys have not heard it, how can you decide if it's worth the money or not?

And, it's more then just an upgraded PS.  He is supplying modding the SB board it to supply different 3.3 and 5V to the DAC

And, a project like this takes a lot of time.  Or should Wayne donate his time?

My 2 cents.

Randy

You're right.  I was rude.  Sorry.  So.... How many are you ordering? 

Believe me, I understand that it takes time and money to run a company and to develop and manufacture a product.  This box might sound amazing.  But, take away the cost of a Squeezebox, do you think that what's left really adds up to $5700?  A power supply and a tube output stage?  I can't speak to the sound of this product.  My only issue is one of markup.  Go back and look at the list of equipment I own which could "all", every single piece,  be bought at a total cost of approx. $6k.  Do you really think the parts in Bolder's "super" Squeezebox are worth anywhere near what the parts in "all" of the components I listed are?  And don't forget that every one of those components I listed are not sold direct (except the CI Audio stuff, you can buy from Dusty for the "same" price as you can in stores and I believe that he sells direct to dealers so that eliminates 1 middle man - obviously Dusty makes more when you buy directly from him).  And yes, of course, there are other costs like R&D, marketing and so on. But every company has those costs too, not just Bolder.  I just don't see how one get's to $6k.

If you still think I am being unreasonable then I guess there's little I can do to convince you otherwise.

[brj]

Per the forum guidelines, manufacturer's circles are to be viewed as an extension of the manufacturers physical store.  You should behave in them as you would in any other brick-and-mortar store.

Likewise, AC is owned by JohnR, who graciously solicits input and guidance from other audio enthusiasts in an effort to make it as desirable an audiophile gathering place as possible.  The AC forum is indeed open to all, providing that they follow the sites guidelines - which may vary in some details from circle to circle.  I strongly recommend that all AC members read the forum rules if they haven't already done so (and perhaps reread them if the haven't checked them recently).

Regarding the particular product discussed in this thread, I would suggest that the proper view might be that Wayne produced a new high-end digital front end - period.  The original source of the specific components really doesn't matter - the product's price / performance ratio to similarly equipped competing products is what matters.  A manufacturer chooses their price point, and that determines both their audience and competitors.  The rest is really academic.

That said, I've heard/read comments from multiple custom manufacturers indicating that they build what people ask for - and they often ask for all of the bells and whistles (Bybees, boutique caps, custom parts, etc.) that often send the final price chasing up the price/performance curve for that last fraction of a percent of performance.  It may not be you, personally, asking to pay for that last expensive bit of performance (and it certainly isn't me), but someone is - designers wouldn't spend their valuable time otherwise.  Having talked to Wayne in the past, he would be the first to tell you how to select from among his existing offerings (or even others) to achieve the best bang for your buck.  As a result, criticizing a product designed to meet the needs of those more concerned with absolute performance than absolute value is misplaced at best.

I long for the day when I may join the ranks of such lucky audiophiles (more power to them!).  Until then, however, I applaud the efforts of all manufacturers that attempt something new and different by any honorable means, as that is how our little hobby evolves.


Wayne, feel free to ditch this post if you clean up the thread, and good luck with the new product!

[JDUBS]

I agree with Josh, you guys are being rude.

This is a public forum, but this is Bolder's circle.

And, since you guys have not heard it, how can you decide if it's worth the money or not?

And, it's more then just an upgraded PS.  He is supplying modding the SB board it to supply different 3.3 and 5V to the DAC

And, a project like this takes a lot of time.  Or should Wayne donate his time?

My 2 cents.

Randy

You're right.  I was rude.  Sorry.  So.... How many are you ordering? 

Believe me, I understand that it takes time and money to run a company and to develop and manufacture a product.  This box might sound amazing.  But, take away the cost of a Squeezebox, do you think that what's left really adds up to $5700?  A power supply and a tube output stage?  I can't speak to the sound of this product.  My only issue is one of markup.  Go back and look at the list of equipment I own which could "all", every single piece,  be bought at a total cost of approx. $6k.  Do you really think the parts in Bolder's "super" Squeezebox are worth anywhere near what the parts in "all" of the components I listed are?  And don't forget that every one of those components I listed are not sold direct (except the CI Audio stuff, you can buy from Dusty for the "same" price as you can in stores and I believe that he sells direct to dealers so that eliminates 1 middle man - obviously Dusty makes more when you buy directly from him).  And yes, of course, there are other costs like R&D, marketing and so on. But every company has those costs too, not just Bolder.  I just don't see how one get's to $6k.

If you still think I am being unreasonable then I guess there's little I can do to convince you otherwise.

If the price of it is an issue, then don't buy it, right?  Stuff like this never ceases to amaze me.  What do you hope to gain by being critical of something's price?  I honestly don't get it.   

[AKSA]

At the risk of inflaming issues, let me put my 2c.

Wayne is operating at the highest levels of audio technology.  He has wonderful imagination, incredible ears, the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff, and has applied painstaking effort over very long periods to produce the goods.

Someone comments that he can't see $6K of components.  Of course not!!  Naive comment - can you see $400K of components in the WAVAC 100W SE tube amp?  You are paying for:

1.  Premium, cutting edge design, artistic engineering if you will.
2.  Premium quality components (Venhaus, Nichicon, RTX and Jensen caps; quality resistors; premium semis, you know all the expensive stuff).
3.  Painstaking attention to detail by one man who has devoted years of his life to ekeing out the highest sonic performance from SS and tube circuits.
4.  Personal service only a direct selling model can give, where the customer has full access to the designer and the maker.
5.  The integrity of a business relationship where the customer deals directly with the creator.
6.  Hand production, NOT mass or machine pick 'n place assembly.  These techniques are time consuming and highly reliable.
7.  Hundreds, possibly thousands of hours of work to achieve these outstanding results, work no one else has put in, otherwise their product would be arguably better.

Any product is priced according to all these criteria, not to mention the notion of perceived value.  If the Reboxed SB is up there and higher than the very best music servers in the world, then it has to be worth a lot of money.  Just what that figure is depends on Wayne, and he knows all about the product, remember.  His business model mandates selling it, that goes without saying.  No one else has this knowledge, and Wayne is selling this technology.  The buyer has to put a price on it, and if it meets the budget, and is then considered good value, then it will be purchased.  Otherwise, don't buy it, and don't make cheap shots from the stalls - it is so easy to criticise the creative people in this world.  No one criticises the cost of the Ferrari, or the WAVAC, yet they have lots of street cred.  Consumers sincerely believe they have a good handle on what a product should cost, but even if one factors in Wayne's R&D costs and time spent at $10 an hour, it might still be very good value.  You are certainly not paying lawyer rates of $500 an hour, and yet you are not getting unthinking, unknowing workers for $5 an hour either.  Who is to know what Wayne is worth, and how much R&D time and construction is involved anyways?  Would you work for $30 an hour?  And just how many hours were spent in R&D?  100, maybe, or a 1000?  And what was the development cost in parts?

I write this in defence of Wayne because he's at RMAF, and might not have time to put his arguments.  I hope this is taken as a defense, not an attack.  I have no axe to grind with anyone here, but I don't like to see another manufacturer bagged on product cost alone, without the critic even hearing, seeing or experiencing the product.  You never know, listening to this product could rival a religious experience - and it might knock the socks of anything else in its category.  You'd never know until you listen over a longish period.  I have some experience in this connection as I designed, build and sell the Nirvana modules Wayne uses in his power supply, and I can tell you they are not cheap.

Cheers,

Hugh

[JLM]

Well, a mod that costs 19 times the price of the original piece is beyond the guidelines most of us would place on modifications.  And $6000 (plus digital storage) isn't cheap by most audiophile standards.  But I think the real source for dismay amoung us, "ordinary audio folks," is that a product like this could signal that Wayne might be moving away from affordable mods.  Thankfully he still offers complete $300 mods (plus power supply).

[john1970]

To all,

To clarify I've heard Wayne's modifications in the past and they are very good (probably some of the best).  My VMPS RM40s use Bolder silver wire throughout the speaker so I do use Bolder products.  I am not trying to insult anyone's work.  My point is one of simple economics.  $6K is a lot to spend on any modification and there are less expensive modifications from Wayne and other AC manufacturers. 

Not meaning to offend anyone,

John

P.S. If my posts have offended please delete.

[SatoriGFX]

Per the forum guidelines, manufacturer's circles are to be viewed as an extension of the manufacturers physical store.  You should behave in them as you would in any other brick-and-mortar store.

Likewise, AC is owned by JohnR, who graciously solicits input and guidance from other audio enthusiasts in an effort to make it as desirable an audiophile gathering place as possible.  The AC forum is indeed open to all, providing that they follow the sites guidelines - which may vary in some details from circle to circle.  I strongly recommend that all AC members read the forum rules if they haven't already done so (and perhaps reread them if the haven't checked them recently).

If I walked into my local shop and this product was on display with the cover off and a $6k sticker, I'd likely have the same reaction if the dealer tried to sell me on it.

I've read through the rules and I don't see where it says one can't post his/her opinion, even if it disagrees with that of the forum "Facilitator" or other forum members.  I don't believe I have posted anything offensive or outside of the rules.  If I have, feel free to point out otherwise.  Wayne or the mods can delete my posts as they see fit.

I have no agenda here other than to express my dismay at the price of Wayne's new product.  Understand, I am quite aware of what high end audio products cost and that some sport prices that would seem a touch out of line to some.  In fact, I own a few, mostly tweaks.  Yet, I look at this new Bolder product and I look at the "stack" of equipment on my rack that retails for the same dollar amount and I have to shake my head.  I'm simply having a hard time wrapping my head around the price.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone and my intentions are purely innocent.  I am simply expressing my opinion.

[Niteshade]

I like to offer options and upgrades on my equipment and understand that it takes time and money to develop upgrades. It is possible to spend more on options than the original equipment sells for. Even though what I make is different than this- I must bring up a **very** important point: Circuits are often worth considerably more than the parts they are made out of. It's what it does and not what it's made from that's important. People should be primarily concerned about the end results in terms of performance and construction standards.

Note: Parts count is irrelevant. A good circuit that performs is priceless.

Second note: I don't believe most manufacturers are out to rip anybody off. We want new and return customers. Those who rip people off won't stay in business for long, so it's not a logical tactic.

My favorite advice to customers: Before making assumptions, ASK QUESTIONS! Do you know how many good, new products go under the radar or are attacked because of assumptions? Too many to count. I understand everyone's viewpoint very well and I can assure you the proper verdict will be made after some well thought out questions are submitted and answered.

[bpape]

This product is certainly, IMO, the best room Wayne has ever had.  The product is outstanding and is more than a simple power supply and SB rebox.  There are 3 dedicated power units inside in addition to the mods to the SB analog and digital circuitry AND a tube output stage.  

No, it's not inexpensive but it's a significant step forward IMO.  I'd agree to compare with comparably priced source products and judge it based on it's performance.

Bryan

[Brown]

sorry if I started a problem. Was interested in the unit but just thought it was a bit expensive thats all. didn't mean to crap on your parade. just an opinion for goodness sake. Good luck with your product.

[Bill Baker]

Regardless of price, this is a product I would be very interested in auditioning in my quest for new digital formats.

[2bigears]

   lets not take the fun out of this hobby,live and let-live people....

[Double Ugly]

I've read through the rules and I don't see where it says one can't post his/her opinion, even if it disagrees with that of the forum "Facilitator" or other forum members.  I don't believe I have posted anything offensive or outside of the rules.

Technically no, it isn't against the rules.  But it is rude, and it is a breach of etiquette for this site.  I can't speak to what does or doesn't happen elsewhere.

In brief, it's a matter of class and decorum, and to crap on a manufacturer's thread in his circle is to display an absence of class IMO.

You say you would do the same in a brick and mortar and that's fine.  Difference is, I seriously doubt you'd take out a full page ad detailing your "dismay", why you "have to shake (your) head" and are "having a hard time wrapping my head around the price."  That's precisely what you're doing when you post to an Internet forum read by thousands of people, and I fail to see how that could be perceived as anything *BUT* poor form. 

I have no agenda here other than to express my dismay at the price of Wayne's new product.  Understand, I am quite aware of what high end audio products cost and that some sport prices that would seem a touch out of line to some.  In fact, I own a few, mostly tweaks.  Yet, I look at this new Bolder product and I look at the "stack" of equipment on my rack that retails for the same dollar amount and I have to shake my head.  I'm simply having a hard time wrapping my head around the price.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone and my intentions are purely innocent.  I am simply expressing my opinion.

But what is potentially lost on some is the fact that you've neither heard Wayne's product nor compared it to similarly-priced sources.  Never say never, never say always, but I doubt many who've heard Wayne's modifications doubt for a minute they're better than most (perhaps all) sources priced at or well beyond the asking price.

I am not a current BOLDER customer, nor do I use any of Wayne's products in my main system.  I am a former customer though, and I strongly believe the last source I received from Wayne was the equal of anything I've heard up to and including the $10k-$20k range.

[brj]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on AC, provided that it is expressed in a helpful, respectful manner.  I would suggest that if opinions were expressed to the owner of a bricks and mortar store in the manner seen at the beginning of this thread, they would most likely be asked to leave.  That issue seems mostly to have been addressed by this point, however, and hopefully can be laid to rest.

As for the price issue.... I think some people are hung up on a "mod" vs. a "product".  Why is an expensive product acceptable, but an expensive mod not acceptable?  In this case, I would argue that it is irrelevant, as Wayne didn't "mod" the SB, so much as happen to recycle a couple of parts from it in what is otherwise an entirely new statement level product built from the ground up to the highest level he was able to envision.  Wayne created a product with 5 (I think) new power supplies/regulators, custom input modules, custom output modules, etc..  None of that was "modded" from the original Squeezebox.

If the argument is about "expensive" audio components in general, then I would stress that "expensive" is in the eye of the beholder.... what you call "inexpensive" may be something I could never afford in 100 years.  I have no doubt that I could find a list of gear that makes someone else's rack of gear look expensive - so therefore I should start complaining that the other gear isn't worth the money - and do so without ever having listened to your rack of gear to determine its relative performance?  There are very few audiophiles who won't find some audio component "expensive".  Complaining about expensive audio components is a bit like trying to fight the tides - ultimately futile.  Doing so in Wayne's forum when he is introducing a new product is bad form.

Ok, time to head back to RMAF and enjoy the show... have a good day everyone.

[cruz123]

I sincerely apologize if I have stepped out of bounds in asking questions about this product.  No offense was intended, but like others I was taken by surprise at the price.    Since the rebox goes for about $2200 more than a well reviewed  and highly modified Transporter, which begins life as a $2000 component, I just wanted to make sure I fully understood the scope of the rebox mods so that I can evaluate the available options for my system.   Although the rebox doesn't fill a need in my system,  I have little doubt that the rebox is a great sounding product that will meets the needs of many of you, especially those with high efficiency rigs.

[Daygloworange]

When you advertise a box that contains a Squeezebox an upgraded PSU and a tube output stage for $6k you should expect some flack.  If he doesn't want feedback, both good and bad, he should not post information about the product.

I'll chime in here as well, as I contributed to this product as well.

The title of the thread is $6000.00 Squeezebox!.

The irony of $5700.00 worth of mods added to a $300.00 device, to some (if not, a lot of) people is something Wayne is well aware of. Hence the title of this thread.

But it boils down to how you measure value (not price alone).

Wayne has wanted to do a no holds barred version of the SB 3 for quite some time. Aside from the parts inside, there are some noise issues he wanted to eliminate that could only be properly addressed by having components physically separated from each other. He also did a lot of R & D, testing many different combinations of parts to achieve the best sonics possible from the SB 3 platform.

There are a number of power supplies, circuit boards that were designed, tested, scrapped, to get to this particular iteration of SB 3.

Wayne asked me to design the faceplate system for his rebox. He didn't ask price. He just wanted something very nice, clean, and professional looking. The bill for digitizing the SB 3 board, machining of the the clips and brackets for  rear mounting in the faceplate, writing of the CNC program to machine the faceplate and chassis wasn't cheap. There were many hours involved.

I was glad to be involved. I have his (older) full analog mod SB 3 with modified linear PS. I also have, on loan, his Ultimate PS for the SB 3. It makes quite a difference to the performance of the modded SB 3. The idea of such a pricey PS for a $300.00 device used to make me shake my head, but not anymore. When I switch back to the linear PS, there's not doubt what the differences are.

That's the measure for me. Sonics.

I've been turned from a sceptic to a believer a number of times by Wayne. Never thought I'd pay that much for a power supply mod.

What I've learned about the importance of a proper power supply for digital devices has led me to send Wayne some power supplies for my digital equipment in my recording studio for him to do whatever he sees fit and necessary to them.

I'm astounded at the fact that all I have is this super tweaked $300.00 device running straight to my amp and speakers, and how world class it sounds. It's a real "sleeper" setup.

Think about just that. A stand alone transport, that requires no pre-amp, external DAC, and associated IC's, aftermarket PC's, impedance mismatches etc... The perspective on this product might change.

The other thing that Wayne didn't mention is that this rebox is available "a la carte". Lower priced versions of the rebox are available for those on more of a budget. I believe prices for it will be in the $2500 to $3000 range.

BTW, Wayne, I'm not sending back the Ultimate PS till I get my SB 3 Rebox!  

Cheers

[poseidonsvoice]

£6000 for a squeezebox........fuck me thats expensive!!!!!

British troll? Obviously doesn't have a currency converter on his PC.

Unfortunately this thread has turned too infantile. This is Wayne's business, and his business model is his own. I respect that.

Anand.

[mr_bill]

I would just file all this under consumer feedback - as long as it is factual and honest.

[john1970]

I agree with Mr. Bill.  Let's move this thread to a more appropriate location.  Lastly, I wish people could express their opinions without using terms like "f*ck". 

[JakeJ]

As a DIY'er I can see where the price get to this. for one example I recently took part in a group buy of Russian Teflon film capacitors over in the Hagtech circle. One 0.47 uF 600 VDC cap cost me $13.75, by comparison one V-Cap by Chris VenHaus of the same value charges $199.99. I see several V-Caps and other expensive parts in the chassis including what looks to be transformers hanging under that elevated circuit board. Transformer coupling adds a whole new dimension to the sonics as well as the cost. As this appears to be a statement piece from Bolder I would guess it would compete with systems of this type the easily cross twice the $6K asking price.

I can't afford this but kudos to Wayne for building it. Kudos to the folks who have the ability to purchase such ultimate goodies. And in a couple of years they'll be on the used market for half or less. aa (I like that part) Ask yourself this, had Wayne built this but designed and implemented his own front end and charged $7500 would you be as cynical? Probably so.

If the price of it is an issue, then don't buy it, right?  Stuff like this never ceases to amaze me.  What do you hope to gain by being critical of something's price?  I honestly don't get it.   

I'm with JDUBS on this but I realize too that it took me a while to figure out there are simply a bunch more people with disposable income than there were just 20 or 30 years ago.

I apologize for pointing out reality.

Best Regards,
Jake