[Brinkman]

So when I purchased my TX2575 resistors, they were offered at .1% tolerance or better.  Is the .1% tolerance equivalent what you were suggesting: to measure and then pair the resistors based on tolerance?  Would this in theory be an advantage to ordering from Texax Components if they do very precise measuring and matching for you??

When I purchased the TX2575 resistors for my Ripper build, I matched them into pairs even though most, but not all, of them were 100.0% their stated value. I think it is a good habit to do this sort of thing.

To answer your question: say you need two 100 ohm resistors. If you want the best resistors out there, you spend the $14.00 and get a pair of TXxxxxs and use both of them... Or for the same price, you can get 30 PRPs (which some are saying sounds just as good as as the TXs) at 1% tolerance. Probability is that at least two are going to be very close to .1% of their stated value, so those are the two you use. And you still have 28 resistors left over, all with 1% precision; still a very good tolerance by anyone's standards.

-Brinkman

[amandarae]

My take:

None!  All the components form a system.  If I have to choose blindly, I would say tubes, gotta be the tubes!

The problem I have with, say resistors being noisy, is that whatever "noise" they are referring to is not properly defined.  Was it thermal noise, junction noise, what?  And is it really coming from the resistors out of all the components operating with it?

I do not have that kind of ears, but how do you know if the nosie you are hearing is really coming from the resistors.  You can hear it or just guessing since the parts you use is from the stock parts list?  They are cheap, so not as quiet right? What if the change, whatever that is, you are noticing is a product of the resistors change in voltage drop because of tolerance thus shifting voltages at about say 3 to 5 volts for example on the B+ decoupling resistors and in turn shifts the OP a bit?

Another one is no matter how quiet your resistors are, what if the noise is coming from the tubes or a cold solder junction,  how can you tell?  How can you differentiate from any other sources of noise like filter caps, or inadequate B+ filtering resulting to hum as well?  What if the noise is a result of faulty cantilever on the cart, or scratchy bearing on the tonearm, what then?

To me, not all problems can be solve by boutique caps and resistors.  You have to find the problem first!  If you built, say, the Cornet 2 with all the exotic parts and then you hear some noise, assuming you have that all mighty ears, what then?


Ahhh, I'm just joking guys!    Build your amp or preamp the way you want it to be.  Buy the most exotic components you like,  nothing wrong with that.  As long as you are happy with what you are doing, then everything is alright!


regards,

Abe

[PatOMalley]

To me, not all problems can be solve by boutique caps and resistors. 

But they make nice photographic opportunities. Oh, yeah.

The thing with me is that it is a learning as well as an labor of love. I know you know what I mean.
Personally I have no idea about noise in truth. I do have an idea now about the sound of caps and where possibly to put the resistors for best purposes, or am learning this voodoo as I go along. It is a best shot.

After all the talk about the Cornet2 I know it will be very nice because many people say it is great with just the stock parts. Recently someone said they used a burned board and old parts. Great sound again.

It is a question of a little pride in the work, learning, and ownership. "Making Hi Fi fun again" and all that.
And a chance to play at audiophile preamp builder, on the internet at least. I guess you become a Dead Head over the thing. Let's blow a cap. wink wink

[Brinkman]

My take:
None!  All the components form a system. 

I'm glad to see so many on this forum feel this way; it makes it refreshing to come back here and avoid dogma.

noise

But you have to agree, if resistor noise weren't ever an issue, then there'd be no better a resistor than your carbon comp or carbon film. I can concede that using NASA-spec'd components in an audio circuit may be overkill, but with each composition type of resistor comes certain strengths. I would say it is a fair exercise to select resistor composition according to a demonstable function, if for anything, to gain first-hand experience.

Another one is no matter how quiet your resistors are, what if the noise is coming from the tubes or a cold solder junction, how can you tell? 

Cold solder junctions? When you're handling $8.00 resistors and $200 coupling caps there's no such thing as a cold solder joint!

To me, not all problems can be solve by boutique caps and resistors.  You have to find the problem first!  If you built, say, the Cornet 2 with all the exotic parts and then you hear some noise, assuming you have that all mighty ears, what then?

Write to Jim Hagerman!
All joking aside, troubleshooting is the most educational part of this hobby. It is requisite to be of any use to oneself or anyone else. Perhaps some find building with premium parts not only rules out component quality issues, but underscores one's personal investment towards a project they want to feel indebted to.

Ahhh, I'm just joking guys!    Build your amp or preamp the way you want it to be.  Buy the most exotic components you like, nothing wrong with that.  As long as you are happy with what you are doing, then everything is alright!

So true; but on the other hand we certainly don't need folks deluding themselves or others. And we must not forget that this hobby has a potentially lethal component...

Best,
Brinkman

[amandarae]

My take:
None!  All the components form a system. 

I'm glad to see so many on this forum feel this way; it makes it refreshing to come back here and avoid dogma.

noise

But you have to agree, if resistor noise weren't ever an issue, then there'd be no better a resistor than your carbon comp or carbon film. I can concede that using NASA-spec'd components in an audio circuit may be overkill, but with each composition type of resistor comes certain strengths. I would say it is a fair exercise to select resistor composition according to a demonstable function, if for anything, to gain first-hand experience.

Another one is no matter how quiet your resistors are, what if the noise is coming from the tubes or a cold solder junction, how can you tell? 

Cold solder junctions? When you're handling $8.00 resistors and $200 coupling caps there's no such thing as a cold solder joint!

To me, not all problems can be solve by boutique caps and resistors.  You have to find the problem first!  If you built, say, the Cornet 2 with all the exotic parts and then you hear some noise, assuming you have that all mighty ears, what then?

Write to Jim Hagerman!
All joking aside, troubleshooting is the most educational part of this hobby. It is requisite to be of any use to oneself or anyone else. Perhaps some find building with premium parts not only rules out component quality issues, but underscores one's personal investment towards a project they want to feel indebted to.

Ahhh, I'm just joking guys!    Build your amp or preamp the way you want it to be.  Buy the most exotic components you like, nothing wrong with that.  As long as you are happy with what you are doing, then everything is alright!

So true; but on the other hand we certainly don't need folks deluding themselves or others. And we must not forget that this hobby has a potentially lethal component...

Best,
Brinkman

Agreed!   As i said, let the builders decide the color of the icing on the cake, the important thing is that you enjoy "eating" it at the end.  I have nothing against those who can hear the difference using exotic parts.  I have nothing against those who does not care.  If the people who are into exotic parts are willing to spend their hard earn money to get these components, so be it.

regards,

Abe

[ronpod]

This last weekend, I had the chance to go to the supreme audio bakery, the RMAF. I totally enjoyed nibbling! The question continuously arises; what justifies the price of some of those audio components? Can it be broken down into two basic elements; 1) circuit design and 2) execution? For us, Jim Hagerman has provided a wonderful circuit design. So it remains for us to determine the execution. It seems natural to wish to push the accumulative noise floor down as far as possible. It is my opinion that every component that is installed has the potential to add to the overall noise integration. How do you reduce this collection of noise? By trying to provide the best in each and every position. Can one chase their own tail whilst trying to achieve perfection -- hell yes! But why are we into to this anyway? Best Buy has a wonderful selection of audio, why are we not satisfied with it?

So go ahead and have your fun poking at those of us that don't have sufficient experience yet to know that low noise component may not matter. I gotta tell you one thing I have learned; I learn allot more from my mistakes then my successes (but the successes feel a whole lot better).

This sounds a whole lot more serious then I had intended, I'll work on chillin'.

ronpod

[amandarae]

So go ahead and have your fun poking at those of us that don't have sufficient experience yet to know that low noise component may not matter. I gotta tell you one thing I have learned; I learn allot more from my mistakes then my successes (but the successes feel a whole lot better).

This sounds a whole lot more serious then I had intended, I'll work on chillin'.

ronpod

Hello Ron,

I am probably "those of us that don't have sufficient experience yet to know that low noise component may not matter" camp.  In fact, I do not really care.  

If your post is directed at me, all I can say is that my previous post intent was to inject some humor to the thread since my impression was that were getting to "anal" about what components to use to build the preamp.  To me, my logic is simple.  If I will spend $1500 to build the Cornet 2 which I think I can build by just spending $650 to $700, then I am missing the entire picture building a world class preamp at affordable cost.   I love my Cornet2, no quetion, but I know that for $1500, there are other preamps I can build that may be better.  Or better yet, get a used Trumpet (which I previously owned).

Okay, that's it for me.  I do not want this thread to be a battle of "mine is bigger than yours" stuff.  

regards,

Abe

[Bill Epstein]

For us, it comes down to fun, and how much fun we can afford. Or how much fun it is to make parts swapping affordable, like Tubes and his Russian teflons.

For a look at how the really high dollar stuff becomes high dollar, read the review of the Red Rock Renaissance amps on Dagogo.com this month. Gordon Maugham spent years refining the circuit he used, then he and partner Al Steifel spent many more months trying parts to acheive what is one of the top amplifiers on the planet. They went with Holcos and Caddocks, Dynamicaps and Jensens. The combinations were as important as the positions in the circuit. Add separate custom wound toroidal transformers for the mains and filament supplies, the cases, etc and you have some idea how an amplifier, or in this case a pair of mono-blocs, gets to be $38,000. I was fortunate enough to have a pair at my home for 6 months last year and can attest to the quality that all that work and all those matched parts acheived. There's no exaggeration in Constantines review.

Jim Hagerman has put in the time and sweat on the circuit and we have the luxury of playing with parts to get the sound to be what we want it to be with no other tools than a soldering iron and a debit card. Guys like us aren't satisfied with just listening.

One more thing: one of the first kits I built was Diyhifisupply's Ella. It comes with those big grey resistors that have color bands even I can see.  A recommended upgrade was Kiwames at several positions. Inserting them noticeably lowered what we call noise; I prefer to think of it as raising the S/N ratio producing quieter backgrounds for the performance. Same for using Cree Schottkys in the rectifier. These changes made me a believer in better parts and I never consider anything finished; what else can I try? As perfect as my 45 amp is, by-passing the cathode cap with the teflons is right around the corner. As revealing as that amp is, it will surely let me know if they are acheiving something.
 

[tubesforever]

Hey Brinkman and Ronpod, don't go beating up on Abe. 

First of all he is a hero of mine and second he is about the most gracious and helpful guy you are likely to meet on a forum.

While there are those in this world that live their life by measurement and theory, and those that have trouble buying into hype and the flavor of the day, Abe is really one that works to help us figure out the nitty gritty aspects of the electonics.  He has been especially kind and helpful to me. 

So when I describe how my speakers can resolve the difference in the room response to the ceiling, side and back walls of the recording venue after soldering in some Boutique resistors I definitely do not require anyone to care one iota. 

This is what makes audio fun and interesting for me.  For others it is just another arm chair quarterback exercise in audio nirvosa. 

I can clearly hear the difference between Yago, Kiwami, Riken, Dale, or Vishay nude resistors.  When you get to a certain level all the resistors sound good to a certain degree.  Some might have a little less glare or a little more detail.  Some will just stand out of the way and that is how I would describe the Texas Component / Vishay Nude resistors. 

Luckily I have some fun and interesting friends.  I asked them to try these nudes before I posted here.  It is good to have a reality check on an opinion before asking people to separate themselves from 100 dollars for resistors.

They wrote back and told me they heard exactly what I was hearing. 

Abe has been really helpful and very supportive of my efforts.  He is a superb guy.  I wish all my friends were as great as Abe.  I never expect him to feel the same way about a passive part as I do because we both realize this is a hobby where system matching and personal preference are as important to the hard numbers and theories.

Abe has one killer system to be sure!  He is an asset to all of us who enjoy DIY.  I think you will grow to like him.  I don't like everyone I meet on the internet but Abe is definitely one of the good guys!

[amandarae]

 

Hey tubes,

Thanks! But really, no worries here whatsoever!  I just made a mistake of trying to inject some humor on the thread.  Never again in this forum I guess 

But we are way OT now, so apologies for that!

For the record, I do buy exotic stuff too!  Just look at my review of the Cornet2.   Oh well.....


regards,

Abe

[ronpod]

Hi Abe,

I am probably "those of us that don't have sufficient experience yet to know that low noise component may not matter" camp. 

I would never have thought after seeing your system that you would be in this camp; but if you want, I'll move over and make some space for you. You would be welcomed.   

I do not want this thread to be a battle of "mine is bigger than yours" stuff.

Sorry, but I'll bet my sense of humor is smaller than your sense of humor. 

My sense of humor is sooo small, you need a nanoprobe..........



I'm hoping you got my PM.
Ron

[Brinkman]

Hey Brinkman and Ronpod, don't go beating up on Abe. 

Hey Tubes, no offense, but if you re-read my and Abe's last exchange, I believe we are in agreement.

As to the topic on hand...

I really think close attention needs to be paid to Jim's posts about the "circuit as a whole". Asking which positions are the most critical to improving sound is akin to asking which links in a chain-mail are the most crucial.

Just to put my money where my mouth is, I am finishing my Ripper build which consists of nothing but Caddock precision resistors in the power supply and TX2575's in the main circuit. I spent a lot of dough, but those opamps don't have a favorite resistor position. There's many other considerations that I'll go into when I post pics in my Ripper thread. In fact, I intend on uploading multiple .wav files of the same recording with different opamps in a given position so we can share our impressions over the forum.

And I'd definitely love to hear from everyone.

-Brinkman

[amandarae]

Hi Abe,

I am probably "those of us that don't have sufficient experience yet to know that low noise component may not matter" camp. 

I would never have thought after seeing your system that you would be in this camp; but if you want, I'll move over and make some space for you. You would be welcomed.   

I do not want this thread to be a battle of "mine is bigger than yours" stuff.

Sorry, but I'll bet my sense of humor is smaller than your sense of humor. 

My sense of humor is sooo small, you need a nanoprobe..........



I'm hoping you got my PM.
Ron

Hello Ron,

I believe I answered your PM  (regarding Hagerman preamps/OB/Orions).

regards,

Abe

[ronpod]

Hi Abe,

Thanks for your detailed and lengthy description in response to my PM! It was extremely helpful.

And I understand your point-of-view regarding the robustness of the C2 design. I can imagine that it is very capable in stock form. I have not had the chance to experience that way because I immediately wanted bliss. So I'm glad for your risk taking in providing a reminder that a stead and tempered approach will allow more components to appear in the system for the same budget if one is prudent.

Humbly,
Ron.

[Bill Epstein]

Here's a passive component for vibration control



EAR Isoloss sandwich mounts, they're 4-40x3/8", $2.50 each from Michael Percy used with 5/8" spacers, Digikey part #4803K-ND, for the circuit board.  I used them in my previous Cornet build last year and felt they contributed to the astonishlingly low noise floor of that build. I also put EAR SD-40 under the power transformer.

Here's another, EAR L-021 equipment feet, also $2.50 each



I placed them under that previous Cornet and immediately noticed an increase in air, life and detail. I repeated the change for a friend w/o telling him anything and he noticed the same thing. Now they're under my CDP and pre-amp.

I've been using EAR products for years; under crossover boards and anything that buzzes like capacitors and transformers. The SD-40 has a self-stick side, the 1/2" thick C-1002 needs an adhesive layer like Microsorb that Percy also sells.

I've learned not to overlook vibration control.