amp channel balance question

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Sotantar

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amp channel balance question
« on: 14 Nov 2003, 04:01 pm »
I have a really sensitive pair of speakers.  I like to listen to music late at night sometimes, and I cannot turn the volume up very loud.  Wood floors and all.  At micro volumes, I must turn the balance control almost all the way to one side consistantly.  It does sound good though when I do this.  As I turn it up louder the sound balances out more.  

Does anyone think I am losing anything by having to have the balance control turned so heavily to one side?  It is a pain though.

Thanks

nathanm

Laymans explanation
« Reply #1 on: 14 Nov 2003, 04:25 pm »
Sounds like you've got too much gain and are running into the lower limits of the volume pot's wiper performance.  Some of those inline RCA attenuators might do the trick and give you more range on the pot.  I've had the same problem myself.  Wiser electronics gurus will give you the proper answers, but that's my laymans explanation for this phenomenon.

Sotantar

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amp channel imbalance
« Reply #2 on: 14 Nov 2003, 04:41 pm »
THanks for that.  Where could I get them.  Do they degrade much of the sound.  Thanks again.

nathanm

amp channel balance question
« Reply #3 on: 14 Nov 2003, 06:56 pm »
Parts Express sells relatively inexpensive ones for about 5 bucks each then some others for $25 each. :o (really bulky too IMO) Then there's some other company that makes allegedly "high end" ones for crazier money.  Rothwell or something I think.  There was a review on TNT I think.  Let's see...
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/rothwell_e.html

To my mind it would make sense to solder up the appropriate resistors right into your preamp out cable if there's room inside the RCA jack.  (or inside the amp itself for that matter) Apparently the quality\tolerance of the resistors used is the key.  To me this makes the most sense considering the resistors themselves will probably set you back a cool 35 cents or something.  But like I said, hopefully someone who actually knows what they're talking about will put this into perspective. Heh!

While you won't have any trouble finding people to tell you the sound will be degraded, it won't be from me.  The reason for the tweak is to improve upon an existing problem of 'degraded', poorly matched channel levels, right? So if this improves upon that you could say the sound is improved! :wink:  Four resistors will probably not be the end of the world.

DVV

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Re: amp channel balance question
« Reply #4 on: 14 Nov 2003, 10:39 pm »
Quote from: Sotantar
I have a really sensitive pair of speakers.  I like to listen to music late at night sometimes, and I cannot turn the volume up very loud.  Wood floors and all.  At micro volumes, I must turn the balance control almost all the way to one side consistantly.  It does sound good though when I do this.  As I turn it up louder the sound balances out more.  

Does anyone think I am losing anything by having to have the balance control turned so heavily to one side?  It is a pain though.

Thanks


I don't know whether I fit into Nate's guru category, but here goes anyway. :lol:

The problem you are experiencing is called tracking error, it is not uncommon, it is unavoidable with classic pots and you can cure it.

You see, a pot has a working angle of 260-270 degrees, min to max. A pot consists of vipers moving along carbonated plates. At your minimum, the carbon on the plates has its full impedance on line, and thus attenuates. As you move the knob clockwise, the viper moves along the plates and the impedance is reduced. Typical pots have two vipers, better pots 2x2 pots for better accuracy.

Unfortunately, for all that, even an ALPS Black Beauty pot has a min to max gain error of 3 dB. In voltage terms, this is about 41%, but in power terms, which is what we want here, that is exactly double, or 100%. For comparison's sake, new digital ladder attenuators (e.g. Wolferson) have a gain error of just 0.1 dB, or just 1.1%.

From the above, you can easily deduce that even with the best of classic pots, there will be an error. Thus, you can't escape it.

That said, what you describe is a serious deviation which you should look into. The obvious cure is to change the pot for a new one, and while at it, consider two more moves:

1. if possible, have it replaced by a high quality, but also high price pot, from people like ALPS, Noble, TDK, Bourns, etc, and

2. while at it, change all other pots as well, in particular the balance pot as well.

Pots do wear out, and do need to be changed. How soon depends on their initial quality and the amount of work they have had to do.

If this is not a good time for changes, try this. Take a small bottle which used to have some nose or eye drops in it; these usually have glass pipettes used to drop just one drop, or dose otherwise. Wash it out well with tap water. Then put in some vaseline, about what could be placed on the nail of your small finger. Add about as much benzine (gasoline), close the bottle and shake vigorously for about 10-15 minutes. In the end, a soft, almost liquid jelly will form.

Turn you pots to their utmost left position. Drop one small drop of the substance into them, assuming you can find an opening to do that (some pots do not have such openings). Slowly rotate the pot clockwise as far as it will go, then insert another drop. That done, rotate the pot from min to max at least 20 times, not too fast, but you don't have to crawl either.

WARNING: Make VERY sure that stuff does not get anywhere else, because it is highly conductive and could cause short circuits.

If the said drops did indeed get inside, I guarantee that pot will not bother you for at least another two years. Works on any mechanical pot.

Cheers,
DVV

ton1313

amp channel balance question
« Reply #5 on: 15 Nov 2003, 12:49 am »
Sotantar

check your PM,

Later



DRUIDS ROCK!!! :rock:

Sotantar

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amp channel imbalance
« Reply #6 on: 15 Nov 2003, 03:35 am »
Thanks DVV.  I will try that.  The amp is new though, so if it works it would not be because of old age or use.  
Maybe a DACT would be a good pot in both the volume and balance places.

I was told though that since I have to crank the balance so far, it wouldn't necessarily be the pots fault as even Alps claims 5% tolerance.

I will try that.  Thanks again.

DVV

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Re: amp channel imbalance
« Reply #7 on: 15 Nov 2003, 08:15 am »
Quote from: Sotantar
Thanks DVV.  I will try that.  The amp is new though, so if it works it would not be because of old age or use.  
Maybe a DACT would be a good pot in both the volume and balance places.

I was told though that since I have to crank the balance so far, it wouldn't necessarily be the pots fault as even Alps claims 5% tolerance.

I will try that.  Thanks again.


Well, if the amp is new, then it could be the worse of the two possibilities, and that is that your amp has a mismatch in gain. In other words, that one channel simply amplifies more than the other, in which case it's an electrical matter best dealt with by an authorized service (as it may require changing some components, and you don't want your warranty voided for playing with it yourself).

The amp may use a special sort of feedback which reduces the problem with volume, but I can't talk about that until I see its service schematics.

Nevertheless, my point is still the same - what you are experiencing is not usual and/or normal, and you should have it looked into.

Cheers,
DVV

nathanm

amp channel balance question
« Reply #8 on: 16 Nov 2003, 04:52 am »
The DACT balance control looks mighty tempting, I'd love to stick one in my pre if there was room, but I don't know what impedence version to use.  How would a person determine this anyway?

Quote from: ton1313
DRUIDS ROCK!!! :rock:


Do they? Probably if you buy them outright.  Now, say you were on a list to demo them, that would be another matter entirely.

Sotantar

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amp channel imbalance
« Reply #9 on: 16 Nov 2003, 05:04 am »
The manufacturer states that this is ok and they had two amps there;  One balance control was set at 1oclock and another at 2;  I just happen to have to REALLY turn mine because I am listening at really low volumes at times.   Maybe the DACT would help me out.  It will probably improve the sound anyway.  

The Druids do rock and I hope Zu gets them out to those on that list.  They are great imho.