Isabella: Macbook vs Vista

Alwayswantmore · « **on:** 10 Sep 2008, 12:15 am »

Everything I've seen in print talks about using a Macbook to get the best sound from an Isabella with on-board DAC. Would a Vista notebook be as good, or is there some technical aspect of Apple's design that makes Macbooks uniquely qualified to be 'the reference source' for the Isabella?

Crimson · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Sep 2008, 12:22 am »

Haven't you seen the Mac commercials? They're just better.

Seriously, though, with a little extra setup on your Vista machine everything should be fine.

Fork · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Sep 2008, 05:35 am »

I recently gave this question a lot of thought, before buying my new notebook. My conclusion was, buy a Mac if the machine will serve solely as a music server and a PC if you will also use it for computing. With Mac, iTunes is much easier to set up for playing music and rip discs, an inexpensive Apple remote is available and OSX is a simpler and cleaner operating system. It took many hours reviewing Hydrogen Audio and Wiki to properly set up Foobar and EAC. You could use iTunes on a PC; it's said to use more resources than Foobar, but that's not an issue with a new computer, however, EAC does burn discs about 20% faster on a PC (I haven't compared the time to iTunes on a Mac). EAC is better on discs with scratches, but if your discs are clean, iTunes can make an equally good copy. BTW, encode in FLAC or ALAC, instead of WAV, because they allow tags to be applied to the music files.

On the other hand, get through the trouble of configuring Foobar and downloading all the components you need and it's much more flexible than iTunes. It's like Firefox, with the everyone around the world working on their own add-ons. My layout is like iTunes, but I have more ability to customize the elements. With Album Art Downloader I was able to get album art for many more albums and with higher resolution than I'd be able to get with iTunes. Also, with Foobar you can experiment with improving your sound by switching between different output modes like Kernel Streaming and DSPs like Secret Rabbit. Except for this, there is no sound quality advantage between Mac or PC

The main reasons I went with a PC were compatibility and pricing. I do all my computing with this machine and my experience with Apple is that it can become a real headache when you're installing a lot of different applications, to find apps compatible with OSX. I ended up going with a Gateway FX notebook; this $1,500 machine would have cost me $2,700 for a Mac with the same level of processing power, memory and graphics capability and Mac doesn't even offer the new, vastly superior, Centrino 2 processor.

My bottom line is: if you need to keep it simple and are only looking for a music server, buy an entry-level Mac Book and install a 500gb hard drive. If you need an all-purpose machine, can handle the complex setup and configuring and are focused on value, go with a PC.

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Sep 2008, 01:28 pm »

Hi Kent,

Great post!

In terms of sound quality using the USB output, they should be the same and there is nothing special about the Macbook that makes it sound better than using the USB output of a PC.

You pay more for a Mac, but for use as a music server I find it is a much more stable system, much cleaner interface, very easy to use, etc..

Quote

My conclusion was, buy a Mac if the machine will serve solely as a music server and a PC if you will also use it for computing.

Quote

My bottom line is: if you need to keep it simple and are only looking for a music server, buy an entry-level Mac Book and install a 500gb hard drive. If you need an all-purpose machine, can handle the complex setup and configuring and are focused on value, go with a PC.

I have to agree with Fork's comments above. I use my Macbook for only two things:

1) Music Server (which I also control via my 3G iPhone acting as a sweet remote!)
Using a Mac with iTunes (don't forget to set 'error correction' to ON when ripping!) as a music server is a real pleasure to use - such a user-friendly interface and a lot of fun!

2) Internet access (email, surfing, audiocircle, etc.)

-------

Since this post is about using a computer's USB output to feed the Isabella, I do not want to thread-jack, but I will say that you can actually run "boot camp" (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/bootcamp.html) on a Mac, which allows you to run Windows XP and use software apps that were designed to run on a PC... never tried it, but heard it works very well.

Cheers!

Vinnie

Randy · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Sep 2008, 02:17 pm »

Vinnie - there is also Parallels for Mac., enables it to run Windows apps., the same as Boot Camp, but allows you to switch between Mac and Windows without rebooting, and you can keep both open at the same time, hence its name, Parallels.

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 Sep 2008, 03:08 pm »

Quote from: Randy on 10 Sep 2008, 02:17 pm

Vinnie - there is also Parallels for Mac., enables it to run Windows apps., the same as Boot Camp, but allows you to switch between Mac and Windows without rebooting, and you can keep both open at the same time, hence its name, Parallels.

Hi Randy,

Cool... thanks for the info!

Vinnie

Toka · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 Sep 2008, 10:54 pm »

There is also Fusion by VMware...operates much like Parallels.

konut · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 Sep 2008, 11:38 pm »

I found this the other day. Fluke is a small utility for Mac OS written in AppleScript that lets you play your FLACs natively in iTunes.
http://cubicfruit.com/fluke/
Havn't used it myself. If anybody does use it, let us know if its ok. Suppose this thead is as good as any to post this in.

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 Sep 2008, 01:52 am »

Quote from: Vinnie R. on 10 Sep 2008, 01:28 pm

You pay more for a Mac, but for use as a music server I find it is a much more stable system...

Thanks for all the responses everyone.

Hi Vinnie -- you use the word 'stable' in your response. I know MS operating systems have quirks, but once set up, does your reference to stability have anything to do with steaming audio on a reliable basis?

For my situation I'll probably need to purchase a new computer to act as a dedicated audio server, so I would like to spend the least amount required to get the job done. Assuming FLAC encoding in iTunes, I could get by with 250MB, especially if storage could be expanded if needed in the future. Battery life would be a consideration, but minimizing size / weight would not be necessary. A remote control would be very nice to have.

With value in mind -- for MS laptops -- are there minimum requirements for memory size, CPU type or speed, operating system type / version, etc. needed to do the job? And are there any remote controls for Microsoft Laptops running iTunes (I say I tunes because I don't want to mess with loading and configuring a hodgepodge of 3rd party applications)?

Thanks again for the input.

Kent

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Sep 2008, 02:15 am »

Continued from above...

From Dell, for $500 you can buy a Studio 15...

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5750 (2.00GHz/667Mhz FSB/2MB cache)

Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1

Combo or DVD+RW Drive

8X Slot Load CD / DVD Burner (Dual Layer DVD+/-R Drive)

Memory 3GB2 Shared Dual Channel DDR2

Size: 250GB3 SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)

Video Card: 256MB ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3450

Sound Card: High Definition Audio 2.0

56 Whr Lithium Ion Battery (6 cell)

USB cord and iTunes and I assume this would do the job? Any ideas for a remote???

EDIT: Just thought of one more potential issue... since the laptop is in listening room, are there any disk drive types / technologies that need to be avoided? I ask this because I have a friend with a Mac full-size server that upgraded to special drives so they were quiet enough to be used in his listening room.

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Sep 2008, 01:45 pm »

Hi Kent,

When I mean "stable," I'm just referring to the operating system not crashing. I also like the fact that I do not need antivirus software running on the macbook - the macbook boots up really quickly (just a few seconds!), while loading Vista is much slower in comparison, and Vista is a dog (eats a lot of memory).

I have found that when ripping music, most drives are clearly audible (they spin really fast - like 8x, 24x, etc.) - but when playing off of the hard drive, the Macbook is silent and I'm sure the Dell would also be silent, as long as there are not a bunch of other programs running in the background, which may cause the internal fan to turn on to keep the CPU cool...

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For my situation I'll probably need to purchase a new computer to act as a dedicated audio server, so I would like to spend the least amount required to get the job done. Assuming FLAC encoding in iTunes

If you are on a budget, perhaps that Dell laptop is the best bang for the buck. I'm not sure about using FLAC with iTunes - I recommend Apple Lossless (of course if you have a bunch of FLAC files, you might not want to re-rip your music).

Quote

USB cord and iTunes and I assume this would do the job? Any ideas for a remote???

Yes, that should do it. I use a 3G iPhone as my remote (all you need is a wi-fi connection in your home, and you download the free application). Audiocircle member Wilsynet brought this to my attention and it is amazing:http://www.apple.com/itunes/remote/

Of course you might not be looking to buy an iPhone - but it also works with the iPod Touch

I am certainly NOT the "authority" on computers - I am very pleased with the Macbook using iTunes, Apple Lossless files, the iPhone as remote, and feeding the USB output to the Isabellina dac -- but this is definitely NOT the only solution and I'm sure you'll also be fine using a PC (like that Dell Laptop) and the Isabellina dac was tested to work fine with Windows XP and Vista...

Best regards,

Vinnie

wilsynet · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Sep 2008, 05:19 pm »

I definitely like the Apple Macbook solution. At $1099 from the Apple Store, it's very well priced and you get a very good product. It is not bargain basement pricing, but you can find plenty of Dells and Thinkpads and HPs for that price too. So while you may pay a small premium for an Apple product, it is not grossly over-priced like it was in the 80s and 90s, and I think there is, subject to opinion, some measure of you get what you pay for here.

If you're using Windows XP, then for best audio quality, you'll want to use an ASIO driver for USB streaming audio, something like one of these to avoid the kmixer layer:

http://www.asio4all.com/
http://usbaudio.com/

Windows Vista has a better audio subsystem than XP, so I'm glad that you mentioned Vista as your target operating system. I would recommend that you get 2GB of RAM with your Windows Vista system, as Vista is notoriously demanding on system resources, especially with respect to memory and graphics. I am not saying that this is what you need, only that this is what I recommend.

USB DACs typically present themselves as USB streaming audio devices, so contrary to what some people say, USB audio is not immune to jitter. That is not to say that it is very jittery, I am only saying it is not immune. The specification for USB 1.0 audio class devices can be found here:

http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/audio10.pdf

Because of the streaming nature of these devices, for best audio performance (and peace of mind) I insist that the USB DAC is connected to a USB port which does not share the USB controller with any other peripheral. The more contention on the USB bus, the more likely you'll have jitter and loss, so I try to avoid this problem by isolating the DAC to its own USB bus.

Computer Audiophile wrote about this:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/node/417

The Macbook, for example, has two external USB ports, and one Firewire port. One of the USB ports is shared with the built-in keyboard and mouse/trackpad controller, and the other one stands alone. I also have an external hard disk where I store all of my music --- it has both a USB port and a Firewire port, so I've connected the external drive and the computer via Firewire so that I (yes, there's a theme here) isolate disk access from the USB DAC.

I am not familiar with which Dell laptops have which USB port configurations and which ports are shared with which USB controllers. As in many things, your mileage may vary.

For a remote, on balance, I have not seen a remote as good as the iPod Touch/iPhone as a remote control for iTunes. These two things together present an easy, flexible, and powerful out of the box, comprehensive, seamlessly integrated solution for ripping, managing and playing your music.

There are plenty of other reasons to own an iPod Touch or an iPhone, and if you already have one of these and iTunes installed, and have a wireless (WiFi, 802.11) network at home, if you already have these things, then the software is free. Here's a review:

http://www.macworld.com/article/134453/2008/07/remoteapp.html

I like the Macbook solution because I don't worry about it. It's easy to configure, it's very flexible, and I know what kind of hardware and software I'm getting. Also, I know it works well. I have nothing against Vista (I used to work on video games for the PC, which may be taken as evidence that I am not biased against the PC industry or Microsoft as that's how I used to make my living), and I think it is a fine solution, but you might (I say might) have to worry a bit more, especially with respect to isolating the USB DAC from other USB devices. My guess is that the Dell laptop you're considering has whatever it is that we want ... even so, it's something that I'm mindful of and you may want to be mindful of it too.

In either case, I expect iTunes and the iTunes remote will work the same way whether that's a PC or a Macintosh, and that the Isabellina will serve equally well, all other things being equal of course.

Wilson

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Sep 2008, 07:54 pm »

Thanks Wilson and Vinnie for well thought out responses. I'm impressed.

My first couple computers were Macs, and I have always loved their ease of use. About '95 work took me into the Windows world for the first time -- I hated it then and I still hate it now. I've always said that I'm just glad Microsoft doesn't make cars! [..."your brakes are not responding, would you like this problem reported to Microsoft?...]

You've given me plenty to think about.

Compared to a high-end CDP, a Macbook is still a bargin. So the value pitch is just my attempt to save a few pennies, if possible. Who knows, maybe I'll end up with my first Mac since the mid-'90s???

gooberdude · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Sep 2008, 08:34 pm »

I can't offer any type of info in terms of Mac machine's with Vinnie's new preamps, but I can say without hesitation that the music CD's i've ripped to the Imod sound a lot difft when coming out of a friends new Macbook as opposed to my tired HP (windows 2000) laptop. There is really no comparison, the music coming out of a Mac is much more musical. The HP laptop tracks are boring and lifeless.

just my 2 cents.

A decent Macbook is next on my short list to buy, but to use solely as a lossless source of music files for the Imod...and later on as a battery powered music server.

wilsynet · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Sep 2008, 05:37 am »

GooberDude:

No surprise that the legacy W2K machine doesn't meet expectations. Have you tried the free ASIO4ALL?

Kent:

Gordon Rankin has very good instructions for configuring your platform for best results with a USB DAC and with iTunes. If you're using Vista, read both sets of instructions.

Windows: http://www.usbdacs.com/Windows/Windows.html
Macintosh: http://www.usbdacs.com/Macintosh/Macintosh.html

You should feel assured that between Vista and a Macbook, with respect to audio quality, both should work equally well. To be perfectly frank, my preference for the Macbook as a digital transport/music server is mostly a personal choice.

bobbylou · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Sep 2008, 10:55 am »

The macbook was price competitive with most windows laptops of similar design about a year or more ago but Apple has spent the past year focussed on iphone and the macs have languished at the same price/performance point while the world passed them by. I say this as a long time mac owner and user, not a mac hater. There's good news though, iphone 3g is done, then the new ipod lineup rolled out this tuesday, and now macbook updates are expected next month. I'd wait until then if you're planning to pick up a macbook.

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Sep 2008, 06:05 pm »

Interesting info everyone.

I've come to the conclusion that maybe I should hang on to my Wadia 830 for a while, and feed the digital out to the Isabella. This will also allow direct comparison between Wadia's internal DAC and the Isabellina.

At some point in the future I can still sell the Wadia and maybe pop for a Mac (I would just as soon have a Mac, but the cost of getting new software and all has kept me from making the leap).

Thanks again. Kent

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Sep 2008, 06:26 pm »

Hey Kent,

I think if you are looking for a laptop as a music server, you'll be the happiest with the Mac and it is work saving up for...

Supposedly they are coming out with a new Macbook soon, so perhaps you'll be able to get a great deal on the current version. Also, consider the Apple certified refurbs on the apple store online - I've purchased many iPods (for iMod) that were Apple refurbs and in every way (appearance, functionality, packaging, etc.) they were just like new units, but with a better price!

Good luck and let me know if I can help,

Vinnie

el dub · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 Sep 2008, 06:35 pm »

The wife has been running a dell laptop for her consulting business and has grown tired of the pc platform due to the slow computing speeds experienced.

My mac runs a lot quicker, (even running windows, according to what I've read.)

The bottom line is that her next machine for a business application will prolly be a mac.

lw

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Sep 2008, 12:39 am »

Quote from: el dub on 15 Sep 2008, 06:35 pm

The wife has been running a dell laptop for her consulting business and has grown tired of the pc platform due to the slow computing speeds experienced.

My mac runs a lot quicker, (even running windows, according to what I've read.)

The bottom line is that her next machine for a business application will prolly be a mac.

lw

Hi el dub,

I have also heard that Windows can actually run better on a Mac