[Ferdi]

Hi guys, a question to make sure I get this straight:

I currently have a Nikon D80 with kit lens. (AF-S Nikkor 18-135 1:3.5-5.6G) That lens works well for me so far. We/I may go on a safari later on this year and from previous one I remember missing some longer reach so I would like to get an additonal lens that gives that.

From the various comments here, I understand that I can use lenses originally designed for analog cameras. Most of these would physically fit the mount of my D80. On top of that, if they are AF lenses, I don't need them to have their own on-board focus engine (as with the D40/60). Thanks to all the discussions here, I picked the D80 over the D40 for that reason.

Looking around "Marktplaats", a very popular local 2nd hand sales site (owned by Ebay), I found there are many analog cameras for sale, many with telelenses as well. These range from fairly recent F55, F80, F90 with lenses that look very similar to what I currently have through older F401, F801 etc. with Nikkor, Tamron, Sigma lenses that look OK to older cameras that are probably not auto-focus but have more substantial looking (metal parts) lenses.

Analog vs. digital lenses and cameras

I understand that due to the smaller CCD area compared to a 35mm film, a factor of approx. 1.5 should be applied to all focal length measurements. i.e. a 200mm lens on an analog (or full frame digital) camera should work as a 300mm lens on my D80, compared to that same analog camera. Is this right? Is this factor always 1.5 or are there differences from camera to camera and lens to lens? Any gotcha's I need to take into account?

Older vs. new lenses

By buying an older analog set as described above, i will be able to get my hands on a telelens for a reasonable price. A total set should not be more than €100 or so. Assuming that the equipment is well cared for what would you choose and why?
- Nikon/Nikkor lenses or Sigma/Tamron/*?
- Newer Nikon kit lenses (a bit plasticy like many of today's lenses) or older Nikon lenses from the F401/801 era? I assume all are AF?
- relatively new AF lens or older (but sturdier looking) non-AF lens?

Being a relative newbie in photography and an absolute newbie in shooting on safari, does anyone have tips for such a trip? Things to read, things to do?

Thanks!

Ferdi

[denjo]

I would personally go with Nikon/Nikkor lenses but the only third party lens manufacturer I would consider would be the Angenieux (Nikon mount), if you can get hold of this marque! The Angenieux is absolutely a fabulous lens - very neutral, very sharp, solidly constructed and simply exudes quality all around! Pity this French company gave up their 35 mm outfit to concentrate on movie camera lenses!

[drphoto]

Even though Nikon has used the same bayonet for years, you couldn't use too old of a lens w/ a digital camera because the aperture is set by the camera electronics (even in manual mode) It's actually one thing I like about new cameras.....change lenses and your aperture stays set where it was previously.

You're correct, if the camera does not have a full frame sensor, then you get approx. 1.5x the focal length....good news for tele fans.

There's nothing inherently wrong w/ using a lens for a film camera on a digital. I think some manufacturers claim that lenses specifically made for digital applications are built to more exacting standards, but this is probably more for specialty lenses used w/ very high resolution digital backs on view and medium format cameras.

I've noticed some chromatic abberation problems on the edges of images made w/ a 28mm 'film' lens on my Canon 1Ds II (full frame).

[JohnR]

Even though Nikon has used the same bayonet for years, you couldn't use too old of a lens w/ a digital camera because the aperture is set by the camera electronics (even in manual mode)

On my D40, you can use any (F-mount) lens ever made, provided that it doesn't require mirror lockup. You set the aperture using the aperture ring, and the shutter speed using the wheel on the camera.

The D80 is more limited, in that it can only use AI and later lenses.

[JohnR]

I understand that due to the smaller CCD area compared to a 35mm film, a factor of approx. 1.5 should be applied to all focal length measurements. i.e. a 200mm lens on an analog (or full frame digital) camera should work as a 300mm lens on my D80, compared to that same analog camera. Is this right? Is this factor always 1.5 or are there differences from camera to camera and lens to lens? Any gotcha's I need to take into account?

Yes, you got it. With a DX camera such as the D80, the crop factor is always 1.5. The reason is simply the size of the sensor (1/1.5 times the size of a film frame).

Assuming that the equipment is well cared for what would you choose and why?

That's a big assumption Carefully examine the lens for fungus and haze. Oftentimes people will dig up their kits that have been stored in the damp garage for 20 years and declare them in perfect condition. Well, until you look inside the lens...

Personally I would look first at Nikon glass, because there is so much more information available on the lenses, that you can use to decide which lenses to buy.

This site is a good one for evaluation of Nikon lenses going way back:

  http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens_surv.html

For more recent lenses, look on photozone.de, slrgear.com, ...

Having said all that, in your shoes I think I would first consider the 70-300mm AF-S VR. I have not used it personally but have seen nice shots from it on dpreview.com.

If you would prefer older glass, perhaps the AF 300mm f/4 lens, which sells for $500-600, would be a good choice. A very good seller on EBay (in Japan) has one up now, let me know if you're interested to know who.

JohnR

[denjo]

Even though Nikon has used the same bayonet for years, you couldn't use too old of a lens w/ a digital camera because the aperture is set by the camera electronics (even in manual mode)

On my D40, you can use any (F-mount) lens ever made, provided that it doesn't require mirror lockup. You set the aperture using the aperture ring, and the shutter speed using the wheel on the camera.

The D80 is more limited, in that it can only use AI and later lenses.

Hi JohnR
That is a very interesting observation about the Nikon D40 being more flexible with older Nikon lenses! I never knew that and was under the impression that the more expensive the Nikon camera and the higher up the D-series ladder, the greater the ability to use older nikon lenses. So, it seems the D40 will score higher for folks who have an array of older Nikkor lenses! Would you know if the Nikon D3 (and the new D700) have such limitations with older Nikon lenses. One of the strengths of Nikon (a major reason I stuck with them since the days of the Nikon F) was its retrosepctive ability to use older glass. Canon was able to march ahead of Nikon in the 90s because they preferred to start from scratch with their digital series but I think Nikon seems to be ahead of the race today! The older Nikon lenses were solidly built, with less plastic and more metal. It really felt like a lens in one's hand, not like some plastic toy!

[JohnR]

Hi denjo, I know what you mean about the feel of the lenses...!

The Nikon system does have a huge "backwards compatibility" factor in its favor. However it's not always simple, and people will interpret "compatibility" or "work" however they like, and then use that interpretation to slam something that doesn't appeal to them personally. Facts get lost by the wayside.

As far as I can tell, here are some facts:

The D40 will mount pre-AI lenses, AI lenses, AI-s lenses, AF/D lenses, and AF-S lenses. In all cases, it will take a photograph at the selected aperture. However, the metering will work only for AF lenses and above. Auto-focus (yah yah) will work only for AF-S lenses.

The D80 will mount AI lenses, AI-s lenses, AF/D lenses, and AF-S lenses. In all cases for which you can mount the lens, it will take a photograph at the selected aperture. However, the metering will work only for AF lenses and above. Auto-focus (yah yah) will work only for AF and AF-S lenses.

The D200 and above will mount AI lenses, AI-s lenses, AF/D lenses, and AF-S lenses. In all cases for which you can mount the lens, metering will work (with limitations on metering mode). Auto-focus (yah yah) will work only for AF and AF-S lenses.

As an example, here is a photo taken with the D40 and a $50 pre-AI 55mm macro lens:

I guess my take on it is that if you have old glass, some of the low-end digital Nikon bodies might actually be better suited for your needs. I'm not saying it's convenient (because without metering, you either have to use an external meter or adjust exposure after looking at the histogram), I'm just saying that it can be done. In the end, only you can judge...

[denjo]

Thanks JohnR, I certainly learnt something new and thanks for sharing!
Your photo looks very sharp and exposure is spot on! The 55mm macro lens (I think the AI version was called the Micro-Nikkor 55 mm, now superceded by the 60mm micro AS) has superb optics! Good shot there!

Best Regards
Dennis

[ooheadsoo]

Well, the thing is you have to guess the metering with the older lenses and hope your manual focus luck is on overdrive with the D40, but it enables you to buy ancient fast lenses.  Here's a candid snapshot I took with my D40 and an old 50mm



That being said, metering I don't find to be a major problem - focus is a BIG issue.  I just can't see with that tiny finder.

[JohnR]

Hah! Nice shot, looks like you were pretty close on the focus there Thing is, would AF have really been any better?

[ooheadsoo]

When you nail the manual focus, you nail it - but for me, AF has a much higher percentage chance of nailing the focus than my skill at MF.

[JohnR]

What f-stop did you take the photo with?

[ooheadsoo]

f/1.8

No point in using more DOF than that

[JohnR]

f/1.8

No point in using more DOF than that

Wide open? Nice work. I try and leave at least a stop as margin of error when manual focusing. Or sometimes I "focus bracket." I guess my point is that even with an AF lens, with that aperture the camera wouldn't have known where to focus anyway (Or would it? Anyone with experience with AF on narrow DoF care to comment?)

PS. where's Ferdi?

[ooheadsoo]

That's true, AF on most cameras is no guarantee of a sharp in focus shot.  You'd have to carefully pinpoint the af sensor on the forward eye and then recompose the picture hoping that the change in angle wouldn't be so much that the focus would be thrown off - which would have been just as hard with this candid, since I was kneeling on the ground for a couple minutes after having set up the exposure and focus, trying to look like I was taking a break rather than waiting for him to look my way in the first place, and then took the shot without looking through the viewfinder.

Which brings me back to the luck thing.

I must say, the little green dot focus indicator on the D40 has helped me tremendously, although it is very unreliable in low light.  With the green dot indicator and sufficient time to focus, such as in this lens test shot, hitting focus, even wide open, isn't a huge problem.


Shooting dynamic scenes with MF, for me, is definitely more hit and miss than with AF.

But for a safari, wouldn't you be shooting at infinity most of the time?  Even so, for a person with my level of skills, I would practice shooting with a long MF lens before going on the trip.  I'd choose the 70-300VR, personally, not having the budget to afford the better Nikon AF lenses.  I don't see too much penalty with shooting digital - it will allow you to shoot more and more conveniently.  Having run out of film on a trip is always a huge bummer.  The crop factor is a big bonus.  I took some shots of some kittens, recently, and my friend's 55-200VR was a good range to shoot them with - when I was standing a mere 5-10ft away.  You're going to want all the reach you can get.  Note I had focusing issues with the AF   Both systems take practice, I guess, for highly dynamic scenes.

[thunderbrick]

My son and I use a variety of old glass with a D50/D70s/D200 and D300.  I especially use my 35 year old 105/2.5, and my favorite is my 800mm 5.6 Nikkor (wildlife and motorsports).  I sold my ancient 800mm f8 Nikkor (early 1960's) to a friend who uses it on a D100, or whatever he is using these days.
He loves it.

[thunderbrick]

Forgot to add........
Anything will work with limitations.  Those of us who have enough experience with shutter speeds and aperture, and especially the "sunny 16 rule", will be able to narrow down the exposure fairly quickly. IMO the biggest challenge is thinking for yourself, not having the camera do all the thinking.  I pound into my students, watch the display info in the viewfinder, get used to what the speeds and f stops typically give you for a given scene, so that if they use an old film lens (a term I much prefer over "analog")  they can estimate the exposure fairly quickly.

[Ferdi]

Hi guys, it seems my question led to quite a few comments. Thank you for your contribution.

I have been sick recently and stacked up work kept me away from AC for a while. Glad to be back.

I have taken some action on my question, buying some additional lenses.

The first set I got was a used Nikon F70 with 2 Tamron lenses:

- AF 28-80 F/3.5-5.6 Aspherical (77D)
- AF 80-210 F4.5-5.6 (178D)

All in good condition. Of course the logic here was to get my hands on the 80-210 that should give me 120-315 effectively on my D80.

I have made some pictures that I still need to get off the camera. Will do so later. I am quite happy with how this works so far. Oh yes, price: I paid €50 for the the whole set including some filters, manuals and working battery. I figure I can sell on the body and the shorter Tamron lens and keep the longer lens for next to nothing.

Will keep you posted on real results.

Then I have also bought but not picked up a Sigma UC zoom 70-210 F/4-5.6. Again a good price of €25 but quality I need to see.

I figure this is a good way to get some experience with the longer zoom lengths and improve my photo skills.

I'll be back with some of the pictures.

[Randy]

My new D60 arrived yesterday. At first blush, I wish I had not gotten kit zoom with it, but we'll see. It is larger than I thought. I have six or seven old Nikkor lenses that I will experiment with. I would have no trouble using the manual setting based on the old film speed measure, ASA, and wonder how it will be different with the DSLR. A couple shots with the 50mm 1.4 turned out well, I thought, but haven't downloaded or printed them yet. I was surprised to see how well the zoom worked with available light when I'm sure even the 1.4 would have required flash with ASA 400 film. Just beginning a long process, but I hope I am up to speed in a few weeks far enough for a trip to the cathedrals of England where I hope to take a lot of interior shots. The help and advice you guys provide on this forum is great.

[ooheadsoo]

Your D60 is pretty low noise at least up to iso800, so don't be afraid to crank it a little.

I think the asa/iso sensitivity between digital and film are the same, but the noise level is different from camera model to camera model, similar to how different film types/brands differ from each other at the same asa/iso.

Ferdi, I think it's a d70, not f (film.)  Those are some great prices.