[schw06]

I was wondering if anyone has enough experience with these amps to recommend any of them as reference quality amps? The idea of decreased space and electricity consumption with little heat production sounds very appealing but I don't have the energy for head to head comparisons of all of them. Does anyone have an experience with a particular Class D amp that bettered a reference quality amp (i.e.... Simaudio W-8, McCormack DNA-500, CJ Premiere 350 Pass 350.5 etc..)?

[woodsyi]

Then there are people who have heard it still don't prefer it over other topology.  This is not being dogmatic.  Anyway, you have to hear for yourself as your taste differs from others.  I will say that the topology offers very good damping power on woofers and most people would agree. 

[Zero]

Short Answer:  yes

Slightly longer answer:  Like all the common topologies, some people enjoy it while others do not.

Side note: The 'reference class'  class D / T / whatever /  amplifiers I have stumbled across tend to be more sensitive to upstream component selection (source, pre amplifier, cables), than their conventional class A, A/B brethren.

[denjo]

My limited experience with CIAudio's D*200 monoblocks shows that there is great potential in class D topology and every reason to believe that, if properly implemented, it can compete with the very best that class A/B has to offer. For the first time, my Thiels sprang to life with bass heft, something my class A/B amplifiers seem to have failed. Even the midrange was glorious, suggesting that it could be on the margins of SET sweetness. However, perhaps I was just plain unlucky, the joy was shortlived when one of the monos broke down shortly after its first anniversary.

What I liked about class D amplifiers was it ran cool, was very efficient, had tremendous power and just felt "green". It had a small footprint and its size clearly belies its tremendous power! However, mine was susceptible to transformer hum (like a motorboat engine with ears up close) but fortunately I did not have problems with RFI that some complain about.

I still feel that the technology is evolving and even big companies are now embracing class D technology - Cary, Bryston ...

I predict that the future of high end audio lies with class D technology and perhaps one day not too distant, there will be more and more class D amplifiers. Just my 0.02 cents' worth!

[2bigears]

  good topic,saving power is a very good thing,running cool simply means hi efficient,which is earth friendly.energy will always cost more and more.saving energy/money/operating costs like tubes is good,but at what point or price do our ears over-ride this good stuff ???? do we stick with tube amps the same way we love our vintage muscle cars,that don't do anyting well except drink serious amounts of fuel via a carburetor,what the hell is a carb [boat anchor] !!!! ??  i say,bring on the class d .thinkin' on giving them a run myself,when do you jump in though ?? how's the dependability so far ??   

[Bemopti123]

I just purchased an used H20 250 stereo amp that is rated to deliver around 250 watts per channel at 8 ohms.  It uses B&O Ice modules, but instead of relying in switching power supplies, like those of Bel Canto etc..., it uses an overbuilt output section.  It weights in at 55-60 lbs. 

I did this in order to pair it with a pair of Infinity Kappa 9s, known to be consummate amp killers.

Although I do have a DNA-225, traditional sort of bear amp, I simply did not trust it to run the Kappas.

Well, although I have not paired it with the so mentioned beast, I do have it running with a pair of minimonitors, which could be run with a 30 watt amp.

The monitors are extremely revealing, but this amp sound a tad mellows in some sections, but mellow smooth not syrupy.  The lows are extremely fast and it has less of this overtly PRatty sound that the DNA tends to have.  The overly Pratty dynamic sounding nature of the DNAs depending on the pairing can sound a bit tiring after a while. 

This digital amp does everything nearly as well, if not better than their analogue counterpart and it consumes very little electricity. Nevertheless, it did run hot while I was playing vinyl through it, but that is the nature of vinyl playback without low filtering, making the amp deliver without hearing much sound. 

If I were to purchase a digital amp, I would not hesitate in doing so, but only those amps that have decently built power supplies.  I am always wary of those amps that output watts in the kilowatt range, but in the end I feel that they might deliver what I call "hollow" watts, without meat and real power. 

Paul

[mcullinan]

I own Nuforce 9 SE v2 and have heard many A/B amps, though not in my system. The Nuforce need a power conditioner plus good cords. I have taken my Nuforce to several NY raves and they were with standard cords and not on a conditioner. Anyways they tended to sound bright, which in my home system I never experienced, which I concluded to be the conditioner/power cords. To my ears the Nuforce are awesome amps, very musical and revealing. No grain like on traditional amps. And soo quiet! They bring the dynamics. I would use that crazy word analogue. But not quite, close though...
I would concede a sliver of realistic air/openness in the highs that the Nuforce may be lacking. Not brightness though. Its hard to pin your finger on it.

I do want to hear the Spectron someday.
Peace.
Mike

[IronLion]

A Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 is currently my "reference" amplifier.  I have tried but have never been successful in parting with it. 

[emac]

The nice thing about some of the D and T amps is that they don't cost much and the boards are easily accessible.  Therefore, they are a modder's dream.  And with some luck, you can make an already good sounding amp sound really, really good.  As for reference quality, that depends on what you're looking for, and how you go about modding the amps. 

[WerTicus]

I've the nuforce 8b's with all the various updates it went through and id have to say they are quite capable of taking on the big boys, when given what they need to shine properly,  which is decent power and signal.

Nothing like a >4000 damping factor to give you a kick in the guts

[sbrtoy]

As usual different amps sound "different" not necessarily better.  Lots of hi-fi rags have trashed class-d amps of late so it seems to be kind of the fashionable thing to do though it is truly unwarranted. It is a new technology, and some people seem determined to kill it.  As with anything like the CD or even Solid State, early versions were less than stellar so I think the future is bright.

I must say class-D, class-T, and Chipamps all sound somewhat different in my experience. 

Chipamps are really amazing in the mids and highs and the best examples of them are truly reference for this application.  Unfortunately they also dislike tough loads and are lacking in bass slam and extension for most appplications.  They are dirt cheap for their sound, and would make a great mid/hi biamp solution on high impedance speakers.

The Hypex modules are very neutral, some would say sterile, though they tend to take on the character of your upstream components.  Their design is based on a good linear power supply which differs from some other apporaches.  Great amps really and they are continuously refining their designs.

The Icepower amps are quite smooth sounding with excellent bass, they do however have some interesting quirks when it comes to their output into different impedances, and the switching power supplies they often employ can create noise. Some have claimed the top end is rolled off or somehow broken, but I think they are merely a bit polite.  They are definitely not unlistenable as some would have you believe.

Right now I have a pair of Vincent Class A 200w tube-hybrid monos, a Cary CAD-120S KT88 push-pull, and a PS Audio A-100 Icepower amp in my demo room.  I can listen to any of them without complaint, though they each excel with different types of music. 

[Wind Chaser]

I must say class-D, class-T, and Chipamps all sound somewhat different in my experience. 

Chipamps are really amazing in the mids and highs and the best examples of them are truly reference for this application.  Unfortunately they also dislike tough loads and are lacking in bass slam and extension for most appplications.  They are dirt cheap for their sound, and would make a great mid/hi biamp solution on high impedance speakers.

I totally agree with this assessment.  The gain clones are phenomenal and offer great value, but as you said the bass isn't what one would call reference quality. 

Of all the new tech amps I've owned and heard, the Charlize is my favorite, but the gain clone is still more holographic but just too relaxed for my tastes.

[cloudbaseracer]

As usual different amps sound "different" not necessarily better.  Lots of hi-fi rags have trashed class-d amps of late so it seems to be kind of the fashionable thing to do though it is truly unwarranted. It is a new technology, and some people seem determined to kill it.  As with anything like the CD or even Solid State, early versions were less than stellar so I think the future is bright.

I must say class-D, class-T, and Chipamps all sound somewhat different in my experience. 

Chipamps are really amazing in the mids and highs and the best examples of them are truly reference for this application.  Unfortunately they also dislike tough loads and are lacking in bass slam and extension for most appplications.  They are dirt cheap for their sound, and would make a great mid/hi biamp solution on high impedance speakers.

The Hypex modules are very neutral, some would say sterile, though they tend to take on the character of your upstream components.  Their design is based on a good linear power supply which differs from some other apporaches.  Great amps really and they are continuously refining their designs.

The Icepower amps are quite smooth sounding with excellent bass, they do however have some interesting quirks when it comes to their output into different impedances, and the switching power supplies they often employ can create noise. Some have claimed the top end is rolled off or somehow broken, but I think they are merely a bit polite.  They are definitely not unlistenable as some would have you believe.

Right now I have a pair of Vincent Class A 200w tube-hybrid monos, a Cary CAD-120S KT88 push-pull, and a PS Audio A-100 Icepower amp in my demo room.  I can listen to any of them without complaint, though they each excel with different types of music. 

What is a chip amp?  Is this something like the Panasonic SA-XR 700 receiver that uses the equibit technology from Texas Instruments?  Just wanting to clarify your terminology.

James

[sbrtoy]

Chipamps are built around a common IC amplifier chip like the LM3886 or LM4780 hence the "chip" name.  Typically they are very very simple designs as most of the necessary components reside inside the chip itself.  They run fairly hot and don't put out much power, though some have bridged multiple chips for more wattage (the 4780 run bridged can do around 100 watts into 8ohms).

They came into common use after people started to DIY the 47 Labs version which was highly lauded and sold for over $2,000....you can build one of your own for about $100 with decent soldering skills.

[timind]

Before I start let me say I haven't owned a tube amp since my Eico integrated amp my dad brought home from a yard sale back in the late 60s. Nor do I intend to go that route although I have heard some beautiful music through them in others systems.
Also I haven't owned any of the super high end amps. The top end for me was Classe, Bryston, McCormack, Portal and those hot running Monarchy amps. The Portal was my favorite.
As for reference I don't know but I currently own the Bel Canto eVo2i and could not be happier with it. It's been in my system for mre than a year now and is the longest I've gone without thinking of upgrading. It would simply cost too much to better the sound.
I also briefly owned the Bel Canto S-300 which uses different technology the the eVo series. II was not as impressed with the S-300. although its sound was good, I had trouble with hum, especially through the balanced input.
One more piece in this category is the PS Audio Trio C-100 integrated. I'm listening to one as I type this. It is a very nice product, extremely quiet with music coming out of a very b;ack background. My particular C-100 is the modified version offered by Underwood Hifi. I really like the amp's operation.
It seems like this may be the future. Cool, efficient, good sound which can be refined I'm sure.

[RJ]

I think the Analog Research Technology Velluto power amp ranks among the finest amps I have ever heard. I'm not sure, but I think the mfg will let you evaluate it at home before purchasing. It is a Class D amp.

This is their website address: http://www.analogresearch-technology.net/index.html

[bummrush]

No,no,and no,i had a couple,at first they wowed me over,after extened listening there was no contest,there is so much hype in this business ,the only way to tell is to put one in your system,sure they run cool don't weigh anything but if sound quality is want you want look elsewhere.I like how Bel Canto int was reveiwed in Stereophile,and  $2000 was what they considered entry level for someone just getting into high end and that the int.would be a good way to go,what hogwash.  :duh:Class d isnt new versions have been around for 30 yrs

[Double Ugly]

Does anyone have an experience with a particular Class D amp that bettered a reference quality amp (i.e.... Simaudio W-8, McCormack DNA-500, CJ Premiere 350 Pass 350.5 etc..)?

I purchased a Spectron Musician III SE (recently upgraded to Mk2) which I hoped would prove an adequate replacement for a pair of Butler Audio Monad monoblocks (retail $19k).  Every review I've seen of the Monads is glowing, and with good reason IMHO.  I'd owned them for over 2 years and I was certain they were an integral part of my system.  I never dreamed I'd never sell them. 

Long story short, the Spectron is better, and I've not missed the Monads at all save for the fairly brutal break-in period.  The Spectron is the finest amplifier I've ever owned, and I hope to add another so I can use them as monoblocks.

I had a very dim view of Class D until I heard the Spectron in an acquaintance's system, but what I heard that evening led me to put the Butlers up for sale 3 months later.  The speed, precision, musicality, tonality... it was impressive.

My suggestion is to forget what others say and try a well-reviewed, well-received Class D amplifier in your system.  Do your homework first (check for matching impedance, etc.), then take one (or two) for a spin.  That's what ted_b did recently, and his DNA-500 is now up for sale (at a great price, I hasten to add ).

As my friend lonewolfny42 is fond of saying, the more you hear, the more you know...

[sbrtoy]

No,no,and no,i had a couple,at first they wowed me over,after extened listening there was no contest,there is so much hype in this business ,the only way to tell is to put one in your system,sure they run cool don't weigh anything but if sound quality is want you want look elsewhere.I like how Bel Canto int was reveiwed in Stereophile,and  $2000 was what they considered entry level for someone just getting into high end and that the int.would be a good way to go,what hogwash.  :duh:Class d isnt new versions have been around for 30 yrs

If you count sub amps and other non-critical applications yes class-d has been around, but nothing even close to the topologies or technology in the current designs.  As I mentioned most would agree the CD was around over 10 years before anyone got it even close to sounding good, class-d and other switching amps are still in their infancy for hi-fi applications.  Also again these amps are all different animals sound-wise so making a blanket statement about any amp that doesn't use FETs or tubes is really not justified.

[jrebman]

I'm with Iron Lion on this one.  I had considered parting with my Signature 30.2 on one or two occasions, but only to satisfy an itch to try something else.  However, now that it has nearly 600 hours on it, it is sounding so sweet I will part with other highly valued gear before this, and believe me, I've gone through several T-amps, including the predecessor Signature 70s.  Most T amps left me wanting something more in absolute smootheness and some more harmonic richness, but all that is taken care of in the 30.2, and with incredible drive and dynamics to boot.  One other aspect of digital/switching amps that effected me is that after 30 to 90 minutes of listening my ears started ringing -- regardless of the volume.  When I switched back to tube amps the problem went away.  The 30.2 is the only t-amp that doesn't make my ears ring.  As for other digital/ICE amps, etc., the other ones I've heard and liked were a couple of the Jeff Rowland models (forget which ones now) and the Kharma monoblocks (and not outrageously priced like their speakers.  I don't know any particulars about their power supplies, but I'd be willing to bet they are linear, not switching.

Anybody who tells you that any kind of amp sucks can only speak for themselves, so should be taken at face value.  Listen and decide for yourself.  If it works for your front end gear, room, tastes and ears, then it works -- simple as that.

-- Jim