[jon_010101]

Who's underestimating vintage gear? I have a Fisher 500c which I love and have a lot of fun with. What's disturbing is, I repeat, "boring little Rega, regardless of sound." But then again if you were just being sarcastic care to make it interesting and wager serious moola? Bring on your Dual and let's put it up against my little boring Rega. I need to make some fast cash!

I'm trying to raise some controversy 

Now, I'd put some restored vintage tube amps up against pretty much any modern gear.  A Dual TT, nah.  I just don't find little belt drive turntables very "interesting" when I'm going to connect 'em to a few hundred pounds of vintage, and when I plan to listen to 10 CDs for every 1 LP anyways.  The Dual is a great match for smaller vintage tube amps, and has character and history.  Plus, it cost 1/10th what a base model Rega would.  A winner to me.  To stir the pot even more: I run it with a vintage Pickering cartridge at ~4g. 

[giantsteps]

Who's underestimating vintage gear? I have a Fisher 500c which I love and have a lot of fun with. What's disturbing is, I repeat, "boring little Rega, regardless of sound." But then again if you were just being sarcastic care to make it interesting and wager serious moola? Bring on your Dual and let's put it up against my little boring Rega. I need to make some fast cash!

I'm trying to raise some controversy 

Now, I'd put some restored vintage tube amps up against pretty much any modern gear.  A Dual TT, nah.  I just don't find little belt drive turntables very "interesting" when I'm going to connect 'em to a few hundred pounds of vintage, and when I plan to listen to 10 CDs for every 1 LP anyways.  The Dual is a great match for smaller vintage tube amps, and has character and history.  Plus, it cost 1/10th what a base model Rega would.  A winner to me.  To stir the pot even more: I run it with a vintage Pickering cartridge at ~4g. 

 Case closed.


 Frank

[doug s.]

i must beg to disagree.  the dual 1019, 1215, 1219, 1229, all sucked big time.  mine never had accurate speed stability, & after the first year its auto-return was always hit/miss.  when i first replaced it, after about 10 years, it was w/a cheap junk plastic pioneer belt drive deck, & it kicked its butt sonically.

doug s.

Well, I have a cheap plastic Pioneer in my basement that I may never use  

My perspective is, I'd rather keep a cool solidly-built vintage turntable in a vintage system, regardless of hassle.  I find such old "junk" much more interesting than a boring little Rega, regardless of sound.  I haven't had any problems (except with my cartridge) and the automatic drive functions fine.  I also have heard no speed problems, likely due to the hefty platter.  I suppose I do enjoy using outmoded tech for the sake of it.  That said -- this ugly little automatic turntable connected to late-50s tube amps sounds pretty darn decent to my ears. 

if you like vintage, try an empire.  now there's a vintage deck that performs!  looks great, too!   my dual had a 9 pound platter, & still had speed variation - easy to see w/its built-in strobe.   easy to hear, too... 

doug s.

[giantsteps]

i must beg to disagree.  the dual 1019, 1215, 1219, 1229, all sucked big time.  mine never had accurate speed stability, & after the first year its auto-return was always hit/miss.  when i first replaced it, after about 10 years, it was w/a cheap junk plastic pioneer belt drive deck, & it kicked its butt sonically.

doug s.

Well, I have a cheap plastic Pioneer in my basement that I may never use  

My perspective is, I'd rather keep a cool solidly-built vintage turntable in a vintage system, regardless of hassle.  I find such old "junk" much more interesting than a boring little Rega, regardless of sound.  I haven't had any problems (except with my cartridge) and the automatic drive functions fine.  I also have heard no speed problems, likely due to the hefty platter.  I suppose I do enjoy using outmoded tech for the sake of it.  That said -- this ugly little automatic turntable connected to late-50s tube amps sounds pretty darn decent to my ears. 

if you like vintage, try an empire.  now there's a vintage deck that performs!  looks great, too!   my dual had a 9 pound platter, & still had speed variation - easy to see w/its built-in strobe.   easy to hear, too... 

doug s.

 I had one many moons ago. Great turntable.


  Frank

[jon_010101]

if you like vintage, try an empire.  now there's a vintage deck that performs!  looks great, too!   my dual had a 9 pound platter, & still had speed variation - easy to see w/its built-in strobe.   easy to hear, too... 

doug s.

I'd been trying to find a good 698 for a long while!  I've given up for now -- I'm living 2000 miles away from my LP collection so it'd be hard to justify at present.  Some day...

[jon_010101]

Case closed.


 Frank

Welp, it's true ... I'm not a turntable snob.  I recall one thread on Audiokarma where someone was looking to buy a Rega P3 for LPs, but had already purchased a restored Dual 1019 for 78s.  Conclusion: a Rega P3 owner with a Dual 1019 enthusiastically recommended that he first try the Dual 1019 for LPs too with another cartridge, before buying a Rega.  In the end, he lived happily ever after (sans Rega).   

[doug s.]

if you like vintage, try an empire.  now there's a vintage deck that performs!  looks great, too!   my dual had a 9 pound platter, & still had speed variation - easy to see w/its built-in strobe.   easy to hear, too... 

doug s.

I'd been trying to find a good 698 for a long while!  I've given up for now -- I'm living 2000 miles away from my LP collection so it'd be hard to justify at present.  Some day...

save your money.  598's, 498's, & the unsuspended earlier wersions are plenty good.  in fact, the unsuspended wersions allow for much easier mounting of a better arm - the empire's weakest link.

doug s.

[doug s.]

Case closed.


 Frank

Welp, it's true ... I'm not a turntable snob.  I recall one thread on Audiokarma where someone was looking to buy a Rega P3 for LPs, but had already purchased a restored Dual 1019 for 78s.  Conclusion: a Rega P3 owner with a Dual 1019 enthusiastically recommended that he first try the Dual 1019 for LPs too with another cartridge, before buying a Rega.  In the end, he lived happily ever after (sans Rega).   

ignorance is bliss, for some...

doug s.

[BobC]

Bob,

I'll try to give you some perspective on things....

Thanks ChairGuy.  I really appreciate your post.  $135 + s/h minimum is too much for me to put into an experiment.  I'd rather put that money into a new TT, should I decide to take the leap into vinyl.

Regards, Bob

[goldlizsts]

i must beg to disagree.  the dual 1019, 1215, 1219, 1229, all sucked big time.  mine never had accurate speed stability, & after the first year its auto-return was always hit/miss.  when i first replaced it, after about 10 years, it was w/a cheap junk plastic pioneer belt drive deck, & it kicked its butt sonically........

doug s.

[/quote]

Dual was considered an excellent turntable in its hey day.  Yours must have been an exception rather than the rule, like anything in life.  Sorry about what happened to yours.

[doug s.]

i must beg to disagree.  the dual 1019, 1215, 1219, 1229, all sucked big time.  mine never had accurate speed stability, & after the first year its auto-return was always hit/miss.  when i first replaced it, after about 10 years, it was w/a cheap junk plastic pioneer belt drive deck, & it kicked its butt sonically........

doug s.

Dual was considered an excellent turntable in its hey day.  Yours must have been an exception rather than the rule, like anything in life.  Sorry about what happened to yours.

yes, it was "considered" to be an excellent deck.  i got suckered as a kid, like many others.  i heard several, the "wow & flutter" on them all was pretty mediocre.  the ones w/the built-in strobe gave a good visual of the general suckitude of them...

doug s.

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Just thought I'd chime in with my Dual experience. I've owned 1009, 1019, 1219 and 1229. I've owned a few of the lesser Dual idler drives as well. None of them had any hint of speed stability problems. The lighted strobe on the 1229 had some ripples on the paper strobe under the platter that caused the illusion of speed instability, but checking on a top mounted strobe disk showed everything was fine. They all needed ten to fifteen minutes or so to properly warm up. A change in voltage (such as late night listening vs middle of the day) could make things be a bit off, but the pitch control would fix this just fine.
Those old Dual straight line tonearms were actually pretty good trackers and didn't sound bad at all. The motors are quiet and steady.
These tables are maintenance prone. The bearings on both platter and motors need oiling every now and then. The changer mechanisms are in need of proper lube on a regular basis (every few years) or they start becoming unreliable. They also have plastic shims that go out of tolerance and cause changer malfunction. There are manual downloads for them available in Vinyl Engine's library for anyone wanting to restore one of these. They usually just require some work. The idler wheels rarely seem to get hard (Mine were all good. My 1019 still is the original and is good). The sound is decent and perfectly fine for decent, but not high end, systems. Oh yeah, its easy to just disable the changer mechanism and use it as a fully manual table, thus eliminated some touchy repairs and maintenance stuff. If one wanted to get rid of the nasty suspension springs and build a solid massive plinth for one of these, it would absolutely amaze most of you what sound would come out. They are well built and well engineered turntables that were let down by a poor plinth and lack of proper maintenance. Although I no longer use my 1019, I keep it in playing condition and keep it as a backup unit, just in case. I could live with the sound just fine.
Oh yeah, forgot. VTA is non adjustable, so you need to either shim the head-shell or add platter mats to get the cartridge to align properly with the record surface.
I'll always have a soft spot for these well respected and well built turntables of the past. They were the reference turntable of many reviewers for almost a decade during the mid to late 60's. Sure, there is better now (there was better then, also, at higher cost), but at a more costly price. All in all, though, it may be fun to fix one of these up and use them. The sound is good enough to be very listenable. I enjoyed the sound of mine playing LP's more than I did the CD's I was also listening to back in the 80's and 90's.

Dave

[hayseed]

... I've owned 1009, 1019, 1219 and 1229. I've owned a few of the lesser Dual idler drives as well. None of them had any hint of speed stability problems. .... They are well built and well engineered turntables that were let down by a poor plinth and lack of proper maintenance. Although I no longer use my 1019, I keep it in playing condition and keep it as a backup unit, just in case. I could live with the sound just fine.... The sound is good enough to be very listenable. I enjoyed the sound of mine playing LP's more than I did the CD's I was also listening to back in the 80's and 90's.
Dave

I realize I am arriving very late to this party, but I want to speak up for the old Duals from the perspective of the budget-midFI-vintage-LPand78 enthusiast.  (I'd have to win the lottery to afford even the cheapest Rega, and that isn't the sort of Rega I'd want if I could get one.)  For some of us, a well-maintained or refurbed 35-year old Dual is a major step up from whatever we have owned before.  I recently acquired a Dual 1229, which has taken some work to reanimate, but its sound is clearly superior to the best turntable I had previous owned, a Pioneer PL-518 direct drive.  Not to mention, that when the Dual was new, the best component system I could afford was worth a total of about $35.00 new and it would have been quite a stretch for me to have even dreamed of owning a Dual.  Now, from the point of view of the purist, my Dual still has some problems I am working on, but some of them can be addressed by more of the sort of maintenance and tweaks Dave and others suggest.

Bob, who began this thread, I would like to hear if you have not yet junked or otherwise given away that 1019.

Steve

[BobC]

Sorry Steve, the TT is long gone.

[hayseed]

Sorry Steve, the TT is long gone.

I hope it found a good home.

[JCC]

Just thought I'd chime in with my Dual experience. I've owned 1009, 1019, 1219 and 1229. I've owned a few of the lesser Dual idler drives as well. None of them had any hint of speed stability problems. The lighted strobe on the 1229 had some ripples on the paper strobe under the platter that caused the illusion of speed instability, but checking on a top mounted strobe disk showed everything was fine. They all needed ten to fifteen minutes or so to properly warm up. A change in voltage (such as late night listening vs middle of the day) could make things be a bit off, but the pitch control would fix this just fine.
Those old Dual straight line tonearms were actually pretty good trackers and didn't sound bad at all. The motors are quiet and steady.

I agree - I also had a 1219, and a 1229, and I wonder about what we have today. The adjustments that we make today for VTA and for Azimuth were not even a concern. Setup was so much easier, and you could stack a bunch of records on these turntables. The Thorens and Empire units were considered to the be best of the time, but the Duals were pretty good and much better for parties.

Today's turntables and cartridges can produce superior sound after you go through days of painful setup and a significant amount of expense. I guess that's the price to keep an older technology up to date and usable. I miss the simplicity and prices of the past, but I love what we have today.

[jon_010101]

I still defend that these old turntables are completely usable for those that care to maintain them.  I will inevitably replace mine with a big Denon some day, but the sound quality is quite good relative to appearance and associated stigmas of automatic turntables.

I think in the early 60s, Stereophile did a comparison of high end systems of the day, and one included a Citation I and II, a Dual 1019, and a pair of AR3s.  This is virtually identical to my vintage setup (I have AR302s from the 90s), and I gotta say: play some Cool Water on Living Stereo, or Enoch Light's Persuasive Percussion, and prepare to be impressed