[Greg Marberry]

Thanks for the clarification.  

So now, we can all just stuff a box with decent drivers, and let the software do the rest!  

Sweet!

B

To an extent... The better the speaker, the better the possible results. A nice (auto) analogy one of my friends came up with is that it is like taking an engine and modding it. You can certainly improve a cheaper engine..but if you take a nicer engine and mod it, you will likely have better results.

My thoughts exactly.  Thanks, Ryan

[audiojerry]

I too have been patiently waiting to make full use of the potential of my P-1A, and I don't want to dampen the enthusiasm, but I'd like to clarify some things regarding the benefits of s.o.c.s.

First off, I'm dubious about the audible advantages of time coherence in speakers. I've heard plenty of time or phase coherent speakers, "time-aligned" speakers using sloped baffles, and speakers touting first-order in-phase crossovers such as Dunlavy and Vandersteen. I've also heard plenty of speakers that are not phase coherent that sound far better to these ears. As far as sloped baffles go, I'm very skeptical that anyone could hear the difference if someone took a speaker and merely changed the angle of the front speaker by placing wedges of varying angles under the front or rear of the speaker. And electrical phase seems equally
non-critical.  Aren't we talking about a difference of milli seconds between a first order and 4th order crossover? Can anyone hear this?

It seems to me that the greater benefit of socs would be in obtaining a flat frequency response. But the problem with this is that a perfectly flat response curve means nothing if the room's acoustics and listening position are not taken into consideration. And even with that, I doubt that everyone would prefer a flat response. Certainly, if our hearing were measured by an audiologist, our personal hearing abilities might influence whether higher frequencies might need to be adjusted.

How does socs address these things?

[Mad DOg]

...It seems to me that the greater benefit of socs would be in obtaining a flat frequency response. But the problem with this is that a perfectly flat response curve means nothing if the room's acoustics and listening position are not taken into consideration. And even with that, I doubt that everyone would prefer a flat response. Certainly, if our hearing were measured by an audiologist, our personal hearing abilities might influence whether higher frequencies might need to be adjusted.

How does socs address these things?

you're absolutely right...

that's what ROCS(Room Only Correction Software) is for...it's supposed to be phase 2 to follow SOCS...

SOCS + ROCS should either knock your SOCS off or ROC your world! (pun intended)  

[Mad DOg]

I too have been patiently waiting to make full use of the potential of my P-1A...

if u'd like to get the most out of ur PT gear, to begin with i'd suggest that you give an aftermarket I2S cable a try...

[audiojerry]

I too have been patiently waiting to make full use of the potential of my P-1A...

if u'd like to get the most out of ur PT gear, to begin with i'd suggest that you give an aftermarket I2S cable a try...

Yeah, I will have to try some digital cables at some point, although I was very impressed with the Ridge Street included with the audition pack. I'm just using the stock I2s right now. Which do you like? Have you tried the Stereovox HDXV that's getting a lot of rave right now?

[Mad DOg]

I too have been patiently waiting to make full use of the potential of my P-1A...

if u'd like to get the most out of ur PT gear, to begin with i'd suggest that you give an aftermarket I2S cable a try...

Yeah, I will have to try some digital cables at some point, although I was very impressed with the Ridge Street included with the audition pack. I'm just using the stock I2s right now. Which do you like? Have you tried the Stereovox HDXV that's getting a lot of rave right now?

i have a stereovox hdxv cable on order...but bear in mind that this is NOT an I2S cable...i'm using the Audio Magic I2S cable between the PT boxes right now...i should be getting a Revelation I2S cable soon so i'll be able to compare the stereovox, revelation and audio magic shortly...

i'll also be comparing the stereovox to the best digital coax i've used so far, the Onix Grand Master coax...

[Greg Marberry]

I too have been patiently waiting to make full use of the potential of my P-1A, and I don't want to dampen the enthusiasm, but I'd like to clarify some things regarding the benefits of s.o.c.s.

First off, I'm dubious about the audible advantages of time coherence in speakers. I've heard plenty of time or phase coherent speakers, "time-aligned" speakers using sloped baffles, and speakers touting first-order in-phase crossovers such as Dunlavy and Vandersteen. I've also heard plenty of speakers that are n ...

You've brought up some good points here.

First, the issue with "phase coherent" speakers that are designed in a purely mechanical way are not truly phase coherent.  Time alignment via sloping or specific crossovers is not an entirely accurate way to compensate for the driver's inertial delay as given relative to the other drivers.

SOCS has the ability to go beyond what is possible in the mechanical realm.  Although it may seem like the difference between driver's movement and their coherence with each other is minimal, many speakers can have an aggregate phase shift in the realm of 900-1200 degrees.  This certainly degrades the overall coherency of the speaker as a system [of separate drivers] and is audible.

Second, it is true that a flat response may not be what sounds best to any given listener in any given room / environment.  We have thought of this and have two ways to accommodate it.  The first is what Mad Dog mentioned which is RCS (Room Correction Software).  It is really best to look at this as a totally different product than SOCS.  The other is a portion of SOCS which allows for a total of nine different standard correction curves (in terms of frequency response).  These will be selectable on the P-1A and include curves for bright rooms, dark rooms, bass boost, treble boost, and various other combinations.  Think of it as an EQ that operates in a really complicated manner.

I hope this helps.  There will be more details on all of this as we move forward.  Please continue to be patient.  We appreciate it greatly.  Let me know if there is anything else I can help answer and I'll do my best.

Thanks

[perose]

Audiojerry:

I've had a couple of versions of SOCS for a couple of years, the latest being an early version of the 9 curve. SOCS works, and when it arrives in final form, it will probably be the best $$'s that you could spend for 2-channel listening pleasure. It's uncanny what it does which is to remove a veil from the music and allow each instrument/voice to exist in its own space with out smear.

I for one can't wait for the final version since I've heard what it can do. It's a credit to Mark and his team that they recognized some of the short comings of the original code and decided to re-do the entire package which had to be a huge task. I hope new code is top notch and  that they will be rewarded for their efforts.

[Eric D]

I've had a couple of versions of SOCS for a couple of years, the latest being an early version of the 9 curve. SOCS works, and when it arrives in final form, it will probably be the best $$'s that you could spend for 2-channel listening pleasure. It's uncanny what it does which is to remove a veil from the music and allow each instrument/voice to exist in its own space with out smear.

That’s what I’m talking about!  Thanks for putting it in better audio terms.  BTW persose,  it hasn’t even been 2 weeks, but sometimes when  I’m listening to music at home I catch myself wondering how a specific passage would sound with SOCS turned on.  Are you allowed to talk about it?  Do you find any particular music style or instruments benefit more than others?

In general, I’m cursing that audio-pusher Mark (Schifter).  I’m beginning to realize what he meant by saying “once you hear it, you won’t want to be without it.”  Price has become the only issue.

There will be more details on all of this as we move forward. Please continue to be patient. We appreciate it greatly. Let me know if there is anything else I can help answer and I'll do my best.

Greg,

This does seem like a good time to start asking a few questions.  But in the spirit of staying “patient,” I’ll limit myself to one question a week.    

Are follow-ups OK?  

… No, wait – that wasn’t my question!  

What will it take to load SOCS on the P1A?  Does the unit have to be returned and the firmware updated, is it a plug-in chip (in the future, a card might be nice), or is it a load from a computer via a cable?  Or are you mayhaps sending out the units with a satellite dish and reprogramming them from the Perpetual Technologies satellite?

[Sean Parque]

What will it take to load SOCS on the P1A? Does the unit have to be returned and the firmware updated, is it a plug-in chip (in the future, a card might be nice), or is it a load from a computer via a cable? Or are you mayhaps sending out the units with a satellite dish and reprogramming them from the Perpetual Technologies satellite?

We send you a CD with the correction on it and you upload to the P1 via USB...

Sean

[perose]

Are you allowed to talk about it?

I can but don't often because I'm really waiting for the final release of SOCS and I think that there are improvements that will be in that final version of code. I purchased SOCS about 3 years ago for my B&W N802s when I got my P1/P3. The early version of the P1 software and SOCS had some issues that Mark and crew addressed with an early version of the 9-curve SOCS. The 9-curve version while much better still has a few thing that could be improved on. So, I'm just as anxious as everyone else for the final version to be released.

Do you find any particular music style or instruments benefit more than others?

Orchestral works are really amazing for the improvement in depth and clarity that is possible however, this really applies to effect that SOCS has on all types of music in general. With the version of software that is in my P1, there are some minor limitations on the source material but, I would hope that these will be addressed in the final release of SOCS.

[Greg Marberry]

Hi Eric,

Thanks for your question.  Unfortunately, the P-tech satellite is having com problems so we won't be able to send out software for the P-1A that way   Really though, all P-1As will be programmed by us at first.  Eventually, we will have a secure server that you will be able to download software directly to your P-1A via USB.  I'll wait for your next question  

[Phil]

Greg,

will the order of product releases be SOCS, RCS, then the P-5?  

Seems like decoding DSD  won't be a possibility until the P-5.  Correct?

Phil

[Greg Marberry]

Greg,

will the order of product releases be SOCS, RCS, then the P-5?  

Seems like decoding DSD  won't be a possibility until the P-5.  Correct?

Phil

Hi Phil,

At this time, that's how it's looking.  It may be the case that the P-5's release will happen along with the software though.  That decision is Mark's.

As far as DSD goes, the P-3A can be upgraded to handle this but this is not something that we are looking at at this time (for several reasons).  I'm not entirely sure what the plans are for the P-5 and DSD.  I know that the DSP side of the P-5 (it's similar to the P-1A) will not be able to handle anything like that.

Thanks,

[Phil]

Greg,

i now remember reading that DSP-related functions -- room correction and the like -- cannot be applied to DSD (perhaps someone can explain this if it is true).

that is too bad.  it would be great to have a one box solution for all available formats WITH SOCS and RCS as options.

but, my P1A/P3A are doing just fine with redbook.

Phil  
[/quote]

[Greg Marberry]

Greg,

i now remember reading that DSP-related functions -- room correction and the like -- cannot be applied to DSD (perhaps someone can explain this if it is true).

[/quote]


This is true... For now.  The P-1A is simply does not have the ability to deal with this signal.

[Greg Marberry]

Hello everyone,
    Below, I've pasted a copy of the most recent info that Mark has posted about SOCS on our forum.
 
Greetings…

With the initial roll out of SOCS very near at hand now… I thought I would post a message about what the final package of SOCS will look like…

Please remember that the Perpetual approach is the only true, full-band FREQUENCY (referred to as “Amplitude or Magnitude Correction”) and PHASE (the hard part, believe me) Loudspeaker Correction System available that can offer the magnitudes of correction necessary to really deliver on the promise.

The early adopters will receive 9 curves with their P-1A’s… Please note them below, with my brief explanations… ALL of these are easily selectable via the on-board software that’s part of the OS on P-1A’s

1 full correction to flat

This includes full Phase and Amplitude Corrections to “flat”

2 magnitude correction only

Just corrections for the Frequency Response of your speakers

3 phase correction only

Obviously, just Phase Correction only… and no Amplitude Corrections

4 full correction + bass boost

This is the “Mark Curve” as I enjoy a rich Power Band Response… This is essentially Curve Number 1, with a 1.5dB boost through the 100 to 400Hz “Power Band”… my personal favourite…

5 low level (add loudness curve)

This is Curve Number 1… but with our own spin in a loudness contour curve… Great for late night listening…

6 bright room (reduce highs)

Curve Number 1 again… but with a special adjustment for particularly bright rooms… VERY useful…

7 dull room (increase highs)

Same as above… but for dull rooms… (heavily draped etc.)… Also quite useful…

8 bass only correction (magnitude + phase, up to approx. 200Hz)

Full Corrections… but just to 200Hz only…

9 nothing (bypass)

Let me add the following…

Please note that EVERYONE that has an earlier P-1A that wants SOCS programming will need to send their units back for a complete update and general health check etc. I’m leaving nothing to chance…

As well… anyone with earlier versions of SOCS for their speakers should send their units back for updating…

We’ll be setting up a new section on our site for Perpetual updates and information soon…

We’ll have more data shortly for those interested in our MMK program (Mobile Measurement Kits) to “really dial in” your room and speakers…

There will be more information on ROCS or RCS (Full Room Corrections) later in the year… but we encourage the use of MMK in the meanwhile… (I personally endorse this)…

SOCS (Speaker Only Correction Software) will be available to those on our list that have waited… (9 full curves) at $399 for a period of 3 months only from launch… and then SOCS will go to $499. MMK will still be an additional $250 if you wish to do this…

We’ll have a further announcement about the ship date soon…

All the best…

mls

[PLMONROE]

Thats seven months old!!!

[Sa-dono]

Thats seven months old!!!

Ummmm...where do you get seven months from?

The above quote from Mark was posted on the 24th of January. See here...

[PLMONROE]

OOOOPS!  Shouldn't do posts late at night without my glasses.  I looked at Gregs joined date and read it as the post date. Sorry.    I guess like everyone I am chewing my mails waiting for this to be available for my speakers (VMPS RM-40s in my case). Hurry up Mark.