[Bob in St. Louis]

Yea, those look like loads of fun. Fast enough to be a blast, but not fast enough to be "scary fast".

John, on the other side of Missouri from St. Louis (few hundered miles) is a SAAB dealership in Kansas City called "George's Imports". They are not just a new/used car dealership, they're also heavy into racing. Customers can even have their SAAB 'tweeked' to whatever extent their wallet can handle. I've had some of my customers ask me why my dealship doesn't do the same.  A few of them have taken their SAAB's to George's for performance upgrades. A fellow last week claims just over 400HP from tuning plus extensive suspension mods. Can't remember why he was in my place for service, but when I looked at the car is was a $50 POS at best. Probably fun as Hell to drive, but it had a lot of problems.

Here's George's: http://www.kcsaab.com/index.asp
Click "Racing" to see the cars the dealership races.

Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Bob,

Yeah - I know George's Imports....I bought my poly bushes from them.  Thanks.

Most of my upgrades (handling and power) are bought from folks also in the fine state of MO...down in Springfield: www.GenuineSaab.com.

I've also bought open air intake, diverter valve to improve performance.....tons less turbo lag and some more power as a result.  Turbo lag really sucks (pun intended  ) and anything one can do to lessen it's effects are well worth it 

How many marques do you handle at that dealership?...I knew it was Volvo (I thought that was all you handled), now SAAB it seems...what else do you handle? Just to give me perspective 

John

[Bob in St. Louis]

We just have the two Swedish car lines. I mean the two GM and Ford lines. 
In years past we've had Peugeot, Alfa Romeo, Panoz, and Fiat. Basically all of the clusterf*** cars ever available in North America.  But SAAB and Volvo have always been here. One of our SAAB techs came here when he got out of Vietnam as a tank mechanic. We've been here that long.
I work for the SAAB side of things. Actually, I'm the ONLY SAAB service advisor in the eastern half of Missouri. There is a small SAAB dealer on the other side of the Mississippi River in Illinois about 75 miles away. But they've only got one SAAB tech and (from what I understand) he's not very good as he was moved from working on Cadillacs a couple months ago so he's probably hating life right about now. So now, we're pulling customers from Illinois as well as the eastern half of Missouri. So I get a little busy at times to say the least.
http://www.suntrupwestcountyvolvosaab.com/HomePage

I've only been here a couple years. Previously I was at "Route 66 Chevrolet Motor Company", but they've since been bought out and things have gone to Hell in a handbasket. I left when I saw the writing on the wall, I really did NOT want to leave. I loved it there.    Due to the horrible current managment, they're about to go under as well.


I forgot about Genuine SAAB in Springfield MO. I've heard of them, but don't know much about them.

Bob

[WerTicus]

A H brace under the front should solve all understeer woes (in the wrx specifically but probably any car) or a sway.

People often get it backwards thinking a stiffer front end will result in more understeer but that is not the case,  in a car that is generally disposed to understeer you want to put relatively more stiffness into the front to balance it.  (it keeps the front tires more level during cornering thus maintaining maximum grip levels)

In fact, re reading what you have done regarding tyre pressure, if you were dropping the rear pressure from ideal back until the car was better balanced then id say you've done it by reducing grip levels at the rear untill it was balanced with that of the front... ie not the ideal way to do it.  Since you've got a rear sway on that is thicker than stock you probably made your understeer worse at that point as the rear tyres will remain flat cornering up to a higher speed than before and the fronts wont.

[ltr317]

Yea, those look like loads of fun. Fast enough to be a blast, but not fast enough to be "scary fast".

John, on the other side of Missouri from St. Louis (few hundered miles) is a SAAB dealership in Kansas City called "George's Imports". They are not just a new/used car dealership, they're also heavy into racing. Customers can even have their SAAB 'tweeked' to whatever extent their wallet can handle. I've had some of my customers ask me why my dealship doesn't do the same.  A few of them have taken their SAAB's to George's for performance upgrades. A fellow last week claims just over 400HP from tuning plus extensive suspension mods. Can't remember why he was in my place for service, but when I looked at the car is was a $50 POS at best. Probably fun as Hell to drive, but it had a lot of problems.

Here's George's: http://www.kcsaab.com/index.asp
Click "Racing" to see the cars the dealership races.

Bob

Yeah, they were quick and handle well on the track.  With the open top, the wind pushing against my helmet made the car seem faster.  About 1700 lbs with driver, and about 85-90 hp for the SR, and 100-105 hp for the SRF.  I was running fairly even with slightly faster classes (cars with small 6 cylinder engines).  My first track car was a Saab Sonnet (remember those?), rented from the same guy.  He used to race several Saabs, including a 93 and a 96.  He rallied with the 96. 

[TheChairGuy]

A H brace under the front should solve all understeer woes (in the wrx specifically but probably any car) or a sway.

People often get it backwards thinking a stiffer front end will result in more understeer but that is not the case,  in a car that is generally disposed to understeer you want to put relatively more stiffness into the front to balance it.  (it keeps the front tires more level during cornering thus maintaining maximum grip levels)

In fact, re reading what you have done regarding tyre pressure, if you were dropping the rear pressure from ideal back until the car was better balanced then id say you've done it by reducing grip levels at the rear until it was balanced with that of the front... ie not the ideal way to do it.  Since you've got a rear sway on that is thicker than stock you probably made your understeer worse at that point as the rear tyres will remain flat cornering up to a higher speed than before and the fronts wont.

Hey Werticus - how've you been? - long time no see 

I totally forgot to mention ...that when I put the new SAAB Sport shocks/struts/springs (offered in 2002 by SAAB as option for the 2002 9-3se model) back a year ago...I also put the best 6-point undercarriage brace on the market on.

http://www.genuinesaab.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=56_28&products_id=35&osCsid=386a362c4154f06ad692894c4f43e1f9

This really stiffened the front end....but my understeer remained.  That is, until I simple bled off 4 lbs of tire (or, tyre  ) pressure from the rears.  Now, and only now, do I have incredibly neutral steering and I look forward to driving my  considerably hopped-up SAAB every day now 

In fact, I would have to say that the 6 point undercarriage brace made the understeer worse off...much as many folks believe.  The stiffer anti-rollbar, installed about 4-5 years ago, did create slightly more neutral steering.  At least in my case and this SAAB...stiffening the rear created more neutral steering and tightening up the front (cowl) created worse understeer.

The 6 point brace tighten up handling (as did the steering rack brace installed 3 years ago), but didn't eradicate the understeer.  Bleeding off the 4lbs of pressure was the trick that did it 

The 6 point and steering rack brace, along with the poly bushes did reduce torque steer to next to nothing, however 

(Bob - cool input - you really do or did represent the bastards and rejects of the US auto scene there...no Yugo or Triumph ever at that dealership? How'd they miss those?  )

John
 

[Bob in St. Louis]

(Bob - cool input - you really do or did represent the bastards and rejects of the US auto scene there...no Yugo or Triumph ever at that dealership? How'd they miss those?  )

Even the whores of the world have to draw the line somewhere!

Bob

[consttraveler]

Good thread:

A friend of mine got me into autocrossing in the mid-70's.  He had a hot little Honda Civic that was wicked fast and I had a Ford Pinto (I know, I'm laughing too).

[TheChairGuy]

I have a loopy 6 mile stretch of road leading to the back side of my town....it's got as many dips, curves and bends as roads in southern France or Italy (or parts of Spanish coast) I've driven.....a true acid test for any car's handling abilities 

The speed limit on it is 25mph.....if you do 30 mph on it you generally feel like you are risking life and limb driving it (except for patches where you can do 35 mph).  Truly, it's an amazing and oft-harrowing drive.

Despite the 3800 lb of bulk to my wife's BMW 325ci (auto) - I always feel like I'm going slower, but I am actually going slightly faster on average in it than I do in my SAAB...averaging a bit under 30mph throughout.  Tho too bulky, it just feels composed with decent communication between tires, wheel and driver.

Yesterday, first time driving on it since bleeding the 4lbs of pressure from the rears - I drove the SAAB thru the twisties at a hair-raising avg. of 35 mph It was great stuff - the near perfect timed, slides around turns with the proper feedback thru the steering wheel.  The bends come so often and the road so rough that you cannot move much between 2nd and 3rd gear (manual) - but when you could you got the idea that you were driving a fine race-bred car.

For the first time since ownership in 9 years, the car handled like smaller, better driving European vehicles (1992 VW Cabrio, 1994 Peugeot 205, 1999 Opel Astra) I've rented in Italy, France and Spain and enjoyed so much driving.  Typically, the road surfaces are much smoother in Western Europe...allowing for more up and downshifts and the cars were hundreds of pounds lighter - aiding greatly in spirited handling.  I also owned a 1992 VW GTI that was simply stellar wherever and whenever driven, too 

For the first time ever my 3100lb SAAB 9-3 reminded me of these prior driving adventures.  The only difference between this and the last (limped) time driving this road was the 4 lbs of pressure bled from the rears.

Try it FWD vehicle owners....I think many of you will like it  aa

I have a feeling I'm going to willingly try to find longer routes home now - it's that impressively improved from prior. At 45, I've re-discovered the driving fun that's been lost for many years now.  Finally, my SAAB acts as I like it....a grown-up, safer, relatively commodious and slightly larger version of my late and lamented VW GTI 

John

[Daygloworange]

 if you were dropping the rear pressure from ideal back until the car was better balanced then id say you've done it by reducing grip levels at the rear untill it was balanced with that of the front... ie not the ideal way to do it. 

Reducing the rear tire pressure might not be the ideal (theoretical) way to do it, but......  the main objective is to balance the car (to that particular drivers style). There are many ways to skin a cat. By increasing the front tire pressure, you are also increasing the (weight) load on the front wheels, which aids in overcoming understeer (just like trail braking in a turn does to counter understeer). By reducing rear tire pressure, you are also changing the slip angle of the tires during a turn. That is kinda similiar to adjusting toe in on a fully independant read suspension.

As far as increasing front camber. I did the same thing on my '95 Z28 to counter the car's tendancy to burn the tread off the outside corners of the front tires. I put in -1.25 degrees of static camber at rest. The result, the tread burned off the inside corner of the front tire (BF Goodrich G-Force KDW's , 255/40/17's). It turns into off ramps wicked sharp though, but tramlines on highway ruts real bad. It'll jump lanes (no joke) at high speed.

I increased the rear's to 275's to counter a bit of oversteer, and that worked out perfect (except in the rain  ).

A number of years ago, I belonged to a karting club, and it was amazing what you learn by adjusting tire pressure alone to the handling of a kart.

Handling is a personal thing. Some drivers like a loose car, some guys don't. I prefer a touch of understeer, and balance the car with the throttle (RWD and plenty of horsepower of course).


Cheers

[WerTicus]

Hi Chair guy, I have been missing for a few years because i was focusing on my business and not audio... also my stereo is really well sorted now and I don't feel the need to tweak it anymore.

also a got the wrx so i was tweaking that (which im finished with too so now its back to audio tweaking)


In any case there is tons of variables with cars that I can only recommend you take it to a renowned suspension development shop in your area and get them to look at what needs doing.  One of the best mods i ever did to the wrx was get it properly tweeked at Wheels World. (and cheapest)

[TheChairGuy]

Hi Chair guy, I have been missing for a few years because i was focusing on my business and not audio... also my stereo is really well sorted now and I don't feel the need to tweak it anymore.

also a got the wrx so i was tweaking that (which im finished with too so now its back to audio tweaking)


In any case there is tons of variables with cars that I can only recommend you take it to a renowned suspension development shop in your area and get them to look at what needs doing.  One of the best mods i ever did to the wrx was get it properly tweeked at Wheels World. (and cheapest)

Hey werticus.....I understand.  I packed away all my gear for 6+ years to concentrate on business and family as I knew how distracting this audio nonsense is to daily life.  I cannot say I was any less happy listening to a Panasonic boombox all those years....and I certainly saved loads of money 

I, too, am rather happy with my system now (tube amps and return to vinyl did it for me)...so I'm posting about front wheel drive handling on Audio Circle now 

Yeah, I had a fabulous alignment shop back in Hicksville, New York where I'm originally from (tinkered by hand and they let you watch them at work)....haven't found one as good since (all computerized alignment to factory specs only).

Since I bled the rears 4 lbs, my handling is really so much better now further tinkering isn't needed much.  The car is tall'ish, and the weight distribution is grossly uneven at 61 front/39 rear....there is just not much more one can do to improve things.  But, I'm really happy the SAAB drives and steers quite competently now (tho not world class) 

I'm really pleased that a $0 tweek made my car act so much better...and I still enjoy the virtues of capacious trunk, comfy seats, subjectively handsome looks (and no monthly payments on a 9 yo vehicle)

John