BDA-1 -- News?

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ian.ameline

Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #20 on: 24 Jun 2008, 02:11 am »
With respect to the digital volume control James, I would expect that with a 16 bit/channel input, and 24 bit dacs -- assuming an 8 bit volume index (1 -- 256 --- yes, not 0 - 255), and a 8x24=32 bit multiplier, and a shifter, there would be no signal loss at all in the digital domain.

out = (in * volume) >> 8; // >> 8 is the same as dividing by 256.

In the case where the volume is at max (256) the output is the same as the input. Where the volume is the minimum -- 1, it is the same as shifting the bit pattern right by 8 bits -- the bits are actually left entirely intact -- they're just shifted over -- much like taking a base 10 number and dividing by 1000 -- the digits would be moved over 3 places, but would otherwise be unchanged. Assuming the source is 16 bits, it just shifts from the high 16 bits to the low 16 bits of the 24 bit word. All other intermediate volumes will be as correct as they can be in 24 bits.

So with the (quite phenominal) S/N ratio you have for this DAC I would expect that a digital volume control (computed as described above) would not cause any bit loss in the signal. So long as the operation takes constant time regardless of the input bits, there should be no additional jitter either. My rough, back-of the envelope math gives a noise floor of -92db below the original unscaled input signal when at the lowest possible volume setting (assuming -140db noise floor as published). Once the volume setting hits 1/32 or more, you're well out of the signal loss zone for a 16 bit input.

In any case with 16 bit/channel (or even 20 bit/ch) inputs, having 24 bits of DAC precision offers *plenty* of guard bits -- enough to ensure that any errors in volume computations are well below the precision of the input -- in fact even with 24 bit inputs any volume computation errors would almost certainly be somewhere very close to that ridiculously low noise floor you've managed to achieve. (I mean come ON -- the least significant bit of a 24 bit sample should be down at around -144db or so, and here you are at -140 S/N? How the heck did you guys DO that? I don't think I've ever seen someone make a power supply and dac combination that actually achieves that close to the theoretical precision of a 24 bit/sample signal -- at least not for a price within a few factors of 10 of what you have done.)
 

edmiston

Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #21 on: 24 Jun 2008, 02:21 am »
Hi James,

Many feel that the best volume control in a dac is not in the digital domain, but rather an analogue passive circuit that just reduces the signal output, as used by LessLoss and MSB.

Mag

Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #22 on: 24 Jun 2008, 02:22 am »
Ooohh! She sure is perddy.  :drool:

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #23 on: 24 Jun 2008, 12:18 pm »
Hi James,

Many feel that the best volume control in a dac is not in the digital domain, but rather an analogue passive circuit that just reduces the signal output, as used by LessLoss and MSB.

Hi,

It would have to be a different product then as we would have to install a stereo volume pot.

james

brucek

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #24 on: 24 Jun 2008, 05:31 pm »
Quote
I mean come ON -- the least significant bit of a 24 bit sample should be down at around -144db or so, and here you are at -140 S/N? How the heck did you guys DO that? I don't think I've ever seen someone make a power supply and dac combination that actually achieves that close to the theoretical precision of a 24 bit/sample signal

Yeah, I'm somewhat amazed by that unweighted S/N specification.

I thought that even the thermal noise of a resistor at room temperature was somewhere around ~ 400nV RMS.

If I subtract 140dB from the 2.3v RMS output I get ~ 230nV RMS.

From the dacs pespective, the 140dB is only a loss of one bit to the noise (23 x 6.125 = ~140dB) vs (24 x 6.125 = ~147dB). I didn't think 23 bits was possible.

brucek

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #25 on: 24 Jun 2008, 05:46 pm »
Hi All,

Engineering tells me we are using the Audio Precision AP2700 Analyzer and doing an FFT Digital measurement and getting 140 dB.


james
« Last Edit: 24 Jun 2008, 07:35 pm by James Tanner »

mcullinan

Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #26 on: 24 Jun 2008, 07:07 pm »
James,
Can you tell a difference between upsampling and bypassing the upsampling mode? Also what kind of speakers do you use when listening?
Mike

ian.ameline

Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #27 on: 24 Jun 2008, 07:18 pm »

Yeah, I'm somewhat amazed by that unweighted S/N specification.

I thought that even the thermal noise of a resistor at room temperature was somewhere around ~ 400nV RMS.

If I subtract 140dB from the 2.3v RMS output I get ~ 230nV RMS.

From the dacs perspective, the 140dB is only a loss of one bit to the noise (23 x 6.125 = ~140dB) vs (24 x 6.125 = ~147dB). I didn't think 23 bits was possible.

brucek


Yes -- that was my line of thinking -- and I don't see any liquid nitrogen tanks in those pics :-)

I believe James when he says that's what they measure. Seriously, these guys at Bryston are *far* too professional to either a:Get the measurement wrong, or b:Mislead or attempt to deceive anyone.

I guess I'm even more curious to see some pics of the insides of this beauty...


James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #28 on: 24 Jun 2008, 07:21 pm »
James,
Can you tell a difference between upsampling and bypassing the upsampling mode? Also what kind of speakers do you use when listening?
Mike

HI,

That's a tough one - sometimes I feel the bass and air around instruments improve with the upsampling and sometimes in a blind test I have trouble picking it out.

I have three systems at the moment.  Most of the time I am listening on the Quad 2905's but I also have the MG1.6's from Magnepan and the Thiel 3.7's.

james

NewBuyer

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #29 on: 28 Jun 2008, 03:38 am »
Beautiful! :)

Is there transformer isolation (or any other type of ground isolation) on the S/PDIF inputs? Also wondering this same question please regarding the built-in DAC board option on Bryston preamps...


James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #30 on: 28 Jun 2008, 09:49 am »
Beautiful! :)

Is there transformer isolation (or any other type of ground isolation) on the S/PDIF inputs? Also wondering this same question please regarding the built-in DAC board option on Bryston preamps...



Hi NewBuyer,

From the lit:

IMPEDANCE MATCHING TRANSFORMERS

The best way to understand the Bryston BDA-1 External DAC is to follow the flow of a signal from when it first arrives at the BDA-1 in digital form to when it leaves to drive an external analog input. The digital signal first arrives at the BDA-1 via either the SPDIF COAX, OPTICAL OR AES EBU inputs or the USB interface input. These are the normal digital outputs from a CD Drive, Sound Card, Computer, Music Server etc. There are 6 digital inputs, which are selected by a front panel switch. This digital signal contains data at over 1 million bits per second that requires a bandwidth of 5 to 10 million hertz (cycles per second). At these high frequencies it is very important to maintain the quality of the signal by having the correct termination at the digital inputs. The BDA-1 provides for this termination in the best possible manner using high quality devices call impedance matching transformers.

Impedance matching transformers provide the optimal interface to the incoming source under all sorts of signal conditions. Lesser quality terminations will degrade the signal, which will cause increased jitter.

POWER SUPPLY:

The quality of power in an audiophile class piece of equipment is imperative to superb performance. The BDA-1 uses two independent power transformers for the initial stages of filtering and regulation. In the BDA-1 each stage in the digital chain (input receiver > sample rate converter > digital audio converter) is also independently regulated to prevent any interactions and to provide rock solid power supplies for any up-sampling/over-sampling process.

The DAC chip also requires a very clean digital power supply if it is to function at its optimum. Noise on the digital supply will cause added jitter, noise and distortion. Incorrect circuit board routing of the digital power supply or ground may also introduce digital noise into the analog circuits. The BDC-1 digital power supply is provided from a separate closely regulated and filtered source. The DAC also requires a high quality analog power source. The analog signal is at its lowest magnitude in and coming out of the DAC so any added noise or distortion will be greatly amplified by later stages. Again a separate, heavily regulated and filtered power supply with carefully routed grounds is provided. This sort of care with the power supplies is one of the reasons for the superior sound of BDA-1. If a digital trace, signal or power, is routed a layer above or below an analog trace it can induce noise via capacitive coupling. Careful trace routing eliminates these problems and provides the extra dB’s of noise and distortion reduction which separate good from great equipment.

All of this being said – and pay attention cause this is really important – the most critical part of the circuit in the Bryston BCD-1 DAC is that the output from the D to A is directly connected to a pair of Bryston proprietary Class A Discrete Operational Amplifiers rather than the typical IC chips employed in most other products. This makes a huge difference in transparence, resolution and dynamic performance.

 
james

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #31 on: 29 Jun 2008, 06:40 am »
Hi James,

Thank you very much for posting this information. Is there also such pulse-transformer isolation on the coaxial S/PDIF inputs, built into the optional DAC boards for relevant Bryston preamps and integrated amps?

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #32 on: 29 Jun 2008, 11:00 am »
Hi James,

Thank you very much for posting this information. Is there also such pulse-transformer isolation on the coaxial S/PDIF inputs, built into the optional DAC boards for relevant Bryston preamps and integrated amps?

Yes.

james

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #33 on: 29 Jun 2008, 11:21 am »
Hi James,

What's the current news on the BDA-1? Can you post some pics of the production units yet? (I'm particularly intersted to se one of the insides :-)

Thanks.

Hi Ian,

I have an inside shot of the External DAC that we will be using in the brochure.  Email me jamestanner@brsyton.ca and I will send it.

james

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #34 on: 3 Jul 2008, 11:44 am »
Hi All,

The first 10 units of the BDA-1 have left the building. I have asked the dealers and customers to get back to me with their impressions so we should have some feedback for everyone soon.

james



Mag

Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #35 on: 3 Jul 2008, 01:49 pm »
Hi All,

The first 10 units of the BDA-1 have left the building. I have asked the dealers and customers to get back to me with their impressions so we should have some feedback for everyone soon.

james





That's great news! I was worried the government would quash the BDA-1. Why? Because it's too good.

Anyway I predict the BDA-1 will revolutionize the music/audio world within two years.

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #36 on: 3 Jul 2008, 02:07 pm »
Hi All,

The first 10 units of the BDA-1 have left the building. I have asked the dealers and customers to get back to me with their impressions so we should have some feedback for everyone soon.

james







That's great news! I was worried the government would quash the BDA-1. Why? Because it's too good.

Anyway I predict the BDA-1 will revolutionize the music/audio world within two years.



Hi Mag,


Thank you for your comments and I have to say I am finding the reaction to the BDA-1 a little surprising. 

The original idea for the BDA-1 was to have an outboard DAC that could be used with out outboard Drive. But over time it evolved into a multi input digital DAC and I have to say the preorders and the dealer and customer reaction has been overwhelming.  I constantly get people saying-- " James this is the perfect product at the perfect time!

Anyway I hope our customers like it. All, I can say is given my demos at home to knowledgeable listeners the response has been extraordinary. 

james

mcullinan

Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #37 on: 3 Jul 2008, 02:16 pm »
Wow!  :thumb:  aa :beer:
I cant wait... James.
I have a pretty good repertoire of DACs now. I keep buying them. Hopefully this will be an audiophools last. hehe.
Would you suggest a 1 or 2 drink minimum while listening to the BDA-1?
Mike

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #38 on: 3 Jul 2008, 02:30 pm »
Wow!  :thumb:  aa :beer:
I cant wait... James.
I have a pretty good repertoire of DACs now. I keep buying them. Hopefully this will be an audiophools last. hehe.
Would you suggest a 1 or 2 drink minimum while listening to the BDA-1?
Mike


3 drinks and 3 days.


james

Robert57

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Re: BDA-1 -- News?
« Reply #39 on: 3 Jul 2008, 03:29 pm »
James, I am also excited by this DAC as a way to play high-res digital download files (like HDtracks) and lossless files in iTunes via a Mac Mini /USB. Admittedly, I am more a poet than an engineer, so please pardon some shaky techy questions, especially if they've been addressed elsewhere:

1.  Most high-end DAC's advertise extensive jitter filtering circuits (like a PLL or two ). Does the BDA-1 have a PPL or similar jitter filter to help clean up the jitter coming in from the transport/source or the SPDIF or USB connection? Have you done any jitter measurements against other competing DAC's, or against the BCD-1 you'd be willing to share? The Bel Canto DAC3 would be a worthy benchmark in this price range as it also has a USB connection. John Atkinson at Stereophile has a rigorous test he does on DAC jitter that would be interesting to replicate.

2.  The USB connection in an external DAC often has higher jitter, and poorer SQ, than SPDIF coax, particularly if the incoming digital signal first has to be converted to SPDIF before the D-A stage (the  BC DAC3 reportedly falls in this category). Some USB DAC's have chosen to have a direct I2S connection from the USB input to the DAC, avoiding any SPDIF and its resulting jitter. Does the BDA-1 have a direct I2S connection to offer the lowest possible jitter from USB?

3.  Any remote option to switch the inputs?

Thanks.

Rob