[Marco Prozzo]

[vlasis]

Are all these babys yours Marco???????/

[zybar]

Thanks for the great post Marco.

I am very keen to see how the TSRP measure.  What you describe is definitely different from what I hear in my system.

George

[Philistine]

Great review Marco, thanks for posting your findings.  I have a few 7N7's and they are a very nice tube, owenmd has a preference for these but I can see the Black Treasures on his horizon in the very near future 

George - what rectifier tube are you using in the TP?  I recall that you had a preference in the past for the BEL, while it appears that all of the Treasure lovers are using the EML. 

[zybar]

George - what rectifier tube are you using in the TP?  I recall that you had a preference in the past for the BEL, while it appears that all of the Treasure lovers are using the EML.

Phil,

I am using the EML.

George

[Marco Prozzo]

Are all these babys yours Marco???????/

Most of those are Peter's foray into the world of 7N7's.  Way more tubes than we had time to test.  As it was we listened to the same five cuts for close to three hours.  The Tungsols and Black Treasures were my contribution.  I think Peter probably paid as much for all of the other tubes as the single pair of TSR's cost me!  7N7's are very reasonably priced.

[Marco Prozzo]

Thanks for the great post Marco.

I am very keen to see how the TSRP measure.  What you describe is definitely different from what I hear in my system.

George

One interesting point that comes to mind, George: As I mentioned, Peter's been playng with 7N7's for a while.  I'd loaned him my TSR's to listen to in his system and compare.  Peter has a truly great system and an outstanding purpose-built room.  It is very different from my system and the only similarity in fact is the MWTP at the front end.  Both our systems are very resolving, but Peter's takes it a step further I would say.  His speakers are Avalon Indras and the rest of the system is right up to speed (I'll let him list it and comment further if he likes). In comparing the TSR's to the 7N7's in his system he thought he preferred the TSR's as being more natural...more musical sounding, albeit laid back...polite. 

That said, I would still give the tubes more time as they reall do change a whole lot in the first 80+ hours I've had them...I hope they stay this way or get better still, but we'll see.  If I had judged them right away you would have seen them on sale here as they sounded awful right out of the box. Then again, they may not work as well in your system, or you may not like their very detailed presentation (or whatever they are giving you) in comparison to the options.  This stuff is all entirely subjective, which is where the YMMV comes in.  Let us know how they work out.  Leave the output circuit on for several days and check them out after 3-4 days.  Hey, if you don't like them, you'll have a very easy sale right here.  Peter definitely wants a pair!

[Marco Prozzo]

Great review Marco, thanks for posting your findings.  I have a few 7N7's and they are a very nice tube, owenmd has a preference for these but I can see the Black Treasures on his horizon in the very near future 

Happy to give back something to this generous list of contributors!  Yes, Peter and I were both impressed with the 7N7 option....it really did do a whole lot of things right and the short tube version was very close to the strengths of the BT.  Still, if you wanted the best, the BT ruled the evening.  We went back in the end to try the BT again, and the 7N7 shorts again (the only tubes we tried twice - albeit a faster pass-through of the music). Nothing new was revealed and it confirmed everything we had opined the first time through.  As I said to George, in Peter's system he was tending toward the TSR's so my take on that is pretty much what I tell everyone: Test this stuff with your own ears, in your own room, with your own system and your own music.  Both the BT's and 7N7's are definitely worth checking out.  I'm still puzzled by the TSR results. One thing that came through loud and clear is that the MWTP is just a wonderful front end regardless of tube choice.  None of the choices really made it easy to walk away, but they were clearly different from one another.

[owenmd]

Interesting review Marco.... thanks very much.

I've been using 7N7's and 7AF7's for many months now as I found I preferred them to your "average" 6SN7's with generally more detail and realism.  The 7AF7 was my favorite for several months, but I then found some RCA short bottle 7N7's that had practically the same amount of detail, but were a little more cohesive with better separation and made more sense of the soundstage. 

My current tube of choice is the Delco tall bottle 7N7.... the same one you mention in your review.  Funny, I tried this in my system a long time ago and found it a little dark and heavy, if generally sounding quite nice.  Thats when I went to the RCA's which had a preferable balance.... but as I've got gradually better cables and other power upgrades etc, the results have reversed.  I guess this means that theres probably no "best" tube, but more likely there's a tube that best suits your system.... and this can be a dynamic situation over time...?

Cheers,

Mark

[owenmd]

Having said that..... I was one of the first adopters of the EML rectifier and I settled on this tube because even though other NOS tubes did great things in certain areas.... I didn't find one that excelled in all.  The EML was the first tube I tried that had very few weak spots and just sounded very balanced overall.... plus its other strengths obviously.

Even though the 7N7's are my current choice, they're not perfect to my ears and system.... I'm eagerly awaiting the long-term and hopefully unbiased conclusions on the Treasures to see if these are to be my next "EML"...?  It sounds like they should last a long time... which is a good thing at their cost. 

[Marco Prozzo]

Needless to say, based solely upon what we heard, if you like the 7N7 sound you'll probably like the BT's. I would like to try the same comparison in a month, given how much change there has been in 80+ hours.

Having said that..... I was one of the first adopters of the EML rectifier and I settled on this tube because even though other NOS tubes did great things in certain areas.... I didn't find one that excelled in all.  The EML was the first tube I tried that had very few weak spots and just sounded very balanced overall.... plus its other strengths obviously.

Even though the 7N7's are my current choice, they're not perfect to my ears and system.... I'm eagerly awaiting the long-term and hopefully unbiased conclusions on the Treasures to see if these are to be my next "EML"...?  It sounds like they should last a long time... which is a good thing at their cost. 

[Philistine]

Phil,

I am using the EML.

George

Thanks for the update George.
I can't help with the burn-in, Dan had the tubes first and my burn-in process was leaving them playing all day while I was working. 
Phil

[Berto]

    Just got a pair of Black Treasure CV-181s. Replaced the EML with the stock GE rectifier and left the analog circuit on per Marcos research to break them in a lil bit.  Plan on putting about 100 hrs on them before first listen.  Unlike my 6SN7s they fit real tight in the adpaters, really gotta force them in. I got same adpaters as Marco from FL vendor.

     Too complicate matters I also bought a quad of Black Treasure KT-88s in my Amp (replaced quad of GE NOS 6550s) and am forced to break them in slowly since I don't have cheap tubes to burn them in with. 
   
    Since I'm a lil impatient after 50hrs on these KT-88s, I know i'm gonna be rolling those CV-181s.  I read the all the reviews and don't expect them to be anything less then my favorites, but hearing is believing. Will add my .02 cents in due time. 

    Wanna thank you guys for all the great feedback, keep it coming!
     
   

[vlasis]

Do you like my 36.5??
 I am using plexi glass cause i like to see the valves at night!!!!
  And also if i bought the EML i can open a hole to the plexi....

  Tell me your opinion is it wrong or not?
 Is it bad for the inside temperature?

[modwright]

Hi  Vlasis, looks very cool!  If the temp is not excessive - I see you added good amounts of vent holes, then it should not be a problem.  Glad that you are enjoying it!

Take care my friend!  I still need to send you your HD's back!

Dan

[AB]

Black Treasure Update #5

25 -> 35 hours. Meh. Dreary and boring. No inner glow. Flat SS and no 3D anything.

35 -> 40 or so. Better but no Nobel Prize in Music. Where did the highs go?

45 -> 50 hours. Back to Meh. Boomy loose bass. No detail. Veiled vocals again. Haven't sounded magical since 25 hours.
 
I'm re grouting the shower rather than listen.

[zybar]

Well my Black Treasures have been running for almost 5 days straight at this point and there is definitely a change in how they sound.

I will do some listening tomorrow night and report on what I am hearing.

George

[NickS]

Black Treasure Update #5

25 -> 35 hours. Meh. Dreary and boring. No inner glow. Flat SS and no 3D anything.

35 -> 40 or so. Better but no Nobel Prize in Music. Where did the highs go?

45 -> 50 hours. Back to Meh. Boomy loose bass. No detail. Veiled vocals again. Haven't sounded magical since 25 hours.
 
I'm re grouting the shower rather than listen.

Hey AB,

When you get done regrouting your shower, come over and do mine... I'll let you hear what a great pair of BT's sound like with a couple hundred hours on them!

Have you tried them with different rectifiers yet?

[AB]

Hey AB,

When you get done regrouting your shower, come over and do mine... I'll let you hear what a great pair of BT's sound like with a couple hundred hours on them!

Have you tried them with different rectifiers yet?

Nope, no different rectifiers other than the EML.

I'm glad you're loving the BTs. There's hope...

The regrouting is beyond ugly. Don't make me post pics!

[zybar]

Well the Black Treasures are in the system and running through one of my demo playlists (see details below) and I can't say that it is love at first listen. 

Overall, I feel like the sound has taken a step backward when compared to my TSRP's.  The music is less liquid, extended, and airy sounding.  There is a bit of harshness in vocals and definitely less body and depth.  While the bass draws more attention to itself than with the TSRP's, it is less tight and articulate.

Keep in mind I only have about 3 1/2 hours on the Black Treasures and reserve the right to change my views and thoughts as more hours get on the Black Treasures.  I also don't have the Herbie's Rx Tube Dampers on them like I did with the TSRP's.

Demo Playlist (thanks Rydenfan for the great selection):

Corinne Bailey Rae - Like a Star
Kate Walsh - Your Song
Ray LaMontagne - You Can Bring me Flowers
The Decemberists - The Crane Wife 3
Ben Harper - Burn One Down
Ben Harper - Lay There & Hate Me
Michael Franti & Spearhead - Never Too Late
STS9 - GLOgli
Medeski, Martin & Wood - Miami Gato
Pink Floyd - Another Brick in the Wall Pt.2
Dave & Tim - Seek Up
Charlie Hayden & Pat Methany - First Song (For Ruth)
Phish (7/6/98) - Ghost

George

Well I have about 125+ hours on the Black Treasures at this point and I can safely say that they have changed  since the the first few hours of use.  Accordingly, my impressions have changed as well. 

The most noticeable change is in the bass.  Things have tightened up considerably - in fact, I am getting the best bass yet in terms of slam and drive.  I still do feel that the TSRP's have the edge in conveying the shading and nuances though.  But if you really want to rock out...I don't think the BT's will have a peer in this area.

Some of the harshness I was first hearing with the BT's has smoothed over and the sound is definitely less fatiguing than during those first few hours.  Still not as organic and liquid sounding as the TSRP's though.

Sound stage has opened up and is more well defined with BT's now, but it isn't producing the same front to back depth that I get from the TSRP's.

If the BT's don't continue to change and improve, I am not sure whether I would pick the TSRP's or BT's as my primary 6SN7 tubes for the Modwright.  Previously, the TSRP's were my clear favorites over other very nice sounding tubes (Raytheon, Ken-Rads, Sylvania, etc...), but now I feel like there isn't a clear and dominant choice.  Each has some very strong attributes that I prize and choosing one will be tough.

Let's see what another 100-200 hours brings.

George