[JG2]

Hold on there, Marco............this 'iphone' gizmo you are using prints words?

The next thing you'll try to tell me is you gave up using glass plate negatives for your commercial photography!

[Philistine]

Hi Vlasis, as promised here are pictures of the 36.5 with the EML 5U4G:







We've had temperatures as low as -18C here in Pittsburgh the last week, I just wish I was over with you in Korinthos where the climate is so good and the beautiful beaches...........

[brucel]

brucel:  you're looking for Bolder Cable Company; Wayne has a Circle here on AC!

Thanks Marco and Audioclyde for quick response.  Really a nice little community going here.  I've ordered the adapters.

[Marco Prozzo]

Thanks for the pics, Phil.  Sorry to hear of the cold snap in your neck of the woods (oh how I hate the cold).  I'm a big fan of Sistrum isolation, or I should say, at the risk of being very indiscreet, "nice rack!"...and there I go, just a rambling along.  Snap back to the point...which is an aside to this thread (go figure) - In the application of your one-box 36.5, what are you hearing as differences in dropping in the EML 5U4G as opposed to a good 5AR4 (I use a Mullard)?  That's a mighty big hole for a mighty big tube. By the picutures it appears you've got it cut pretty tightly to fit - is that by the measurement John figured out on his abacus?  Seriously is that the punch measurement John indicated or smaller? I think if it were too tight one might risk transferring the vibrations of the case to the glass.  Also it makes the slight rocking motion to remove the tube a bit limited.  Maybe it's just the angle of the pictures.  Are you using glass negatives? As far as the EML in the MWTP - I would very much agree that it has a profound effect on the sound.  I was reminded of that in swapping back from the old Tungsol that I have.

Hi Vlasis, as promised here are pictures of the 36.5 with the EML 5U4G:







We've had temperatures as low as -18C here in Pittsburgh the last week, I just wish I was over with you in Korinthos where the climate is so good and the beautiful beaches...........

[Marco Prozzo]

Thanks Marco and Audioclyde for quick response.  Really a nice little community going here.  I've ordered the adapters.

Happy to help.  I've also enjoyed this group of people - the thread and the people have been an invaluable resource to me in getting the most out of the MWTP.  Let us hear about your experience with your new tubes when the adapters arrive.  By all means enjoy it while you wait as it is certainly a great component with even the stock tubes! 

[tdangelo]

well, I have about 100hr on the BT as of tonight  My goodness are these tubes good!  As the other's have so eloquently stated, these tubes are in a class of their own.  I've never heard my system sound SO good!  The thing that really strikes me the most is the holographic 3D imaging and the soundstage - it's just crazy good to my ears.  My speakers used to disappear before but now it's like I'm not listening to speakers - what emerges is a soundstage that I can mentally walk into and look around - it's wrap around and kind of bathes me   I hope I'm not sounding over the top but my goodness.  The TNT review of the BT's compared them to what I've been using for several months - the Sylvania 6SN7WGT - I had the slightly tighter tolerance Gold Brand variety.  The matching with the BT's is also crazy good - my Sylvania's were very closely matched by I can tell the BT's are better.  I'm very sensitive to left/right image drift if tubes aren't 100% matched - with the BT's it's perfect.  This is just my opinion in my system -)   The Lagavulin scotch and a couple of Dogfish Head Indian Brown Ale may have influenced my opinion but only slightly;-)

[Philistine]

Marco - the hole in the 36.5 was made by John, so I assume he used the hole punch he refers to in his post.  The EML you see in this picture is my original tube, the latest production has a slightly smaller overall dimension and is not such a tight fit. 
When I initially ran my system with the EML in my 36.5 AND a second in the MWTP I found that the overall sound was very bass heavy and inarticulate.  It was only when I installed Grover Huffman IC's and SC's that the combination of two 36.5 produced a very organic sound with fast, detailed and deep bass.  It's only the last few weeks that my second KWA has burned in and the cables finalized, so I've not spent any time doing a detailed AB comparison with different rectifier tubes in the 36.5.  I'll try and do this over the weekend and get back to you.

Tony - I think your comments on the Treasures nail it for me, I find the very holographic and 3D soundstage are the most noticeable benefit in my system.   

[zybar]

well, I have about 100hr on the BT as of tonight  My goodness are these tubes good!  As the other's have so eloquently stated, these tubes are in a class of their own.  I've never heard my system sound SO good!  The thing that really strikes me the most is the holographic 3D imaging and the soundstage - it's just crazy good to my ears.  My speakers used to disappear before but now it's like I'm not listening to speakers - what emerges is a soundstage that I can mentally walk into and look around - it's wrap around and kind of bathes me   I hope I'm not sounding over the top but my goodness.  The TNT review of the BT's compared them to what I've been using for several months - the Sylvania 6SN7WGT - I had the slightly tighter tolerance Gold Brand variety.  The matching with the BT's is also crazy good - my Sylvania's were very closely matched by I can tell the BT's are better.  I'm very sensitive to left/right image drift if tubes aren't 100% matched - with the BT's it's perfect.  This is just my opinion in my system -)   The Lagavulin scotch and a couple of Dogfish Head Indian Brown Ale may have influenced my opinion but only slightly;-)

 

Hopefully I can find some time tonight to give them a try.

George

[vlasis]

Hallo again......i am thinking about the rectifiers valves the EML 5UG4 for my 36.5.
 I need something to ask all of you that you use these valves.
 What other components need for this modification exept the holes?
 Do you need other socket,other resistors,capacitors or something else?Or you can put the valve in the socket and thats it?

 I know my english are not so good but i hope to understand what i mean!!!!!!!

[Philistine]

Hallo again......i am thinking about the rectifiers valves the EML 5UG4 for my 36.5.
 I need something to ask all of you that you use these valves.
 What other components need for this modification exept the holes?
 Do you need other socket,other resistors,capacitors or something else?Or you can put the valve in the socket and thats it?

 I know my english are not so good but i hope to understand what i mean!!!!!!!

Hi vlasis, except for the hole in the top of the 36.5 it requires NO other modifications.
I will do some trials over the weekend with other rectifier tubes I have and post back the findings.  You will then have more data points and can decide if its worthwhile to make any changes.

[vlasis]

 I forgot something very important.........to thank you all for your answears and of cource Philistine for photos and your answears!!!!!!!
 I am waiting for the new results about rectifiers !!!!!!!!
 Hurry up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



 

[Marco Prozzo]

My Black Treasures continue to burn-in quite nicely.  I was noticing some very nice tight bass yesterday, the likes of which I have not heard with that cut of music before.  My friend, Peter, who also has a MWTP is coming by tonight for some take-out Chinese and listening.  We'll have my BT tubes, along with a pair of TSR's, my KenRads, and Peter's bringing a couple of 7n7 variants he likes and his Loctal adapter.  Should be an interesting comparison.  Downside of trying to compare these output tubes is that we don't have another device to keep tubes warmed up in  Anyway, I'll post some impressions if all goes well.

[dminches]

Tell your friend to bring his MWTP to be used as a tube warmer.

[Marco Prozzo]

Tell your friend to bring his MWTP to be used as a tube warmer.

That would have been a good idea, and I thought of it, but too late - he's already in a place where it's not an option.  So you'll have to take the impressions with that in mind.  We will probably have ot rely on aural memory to some degree, or rather a greater degree, in order to give contenders time to warm.....wait...I have an idea....I may be able to keep a pair on deck warm using my tube tester!  WE DO have a spare set of octal adapters - I can drop one tube into the Octal slot and the other into the 9-pin slot....not sure if that would work.  Tester is a BK707 - would it run 6v to both tubes?

[zybar]

Well the Black Treasures are in the system and running through one of my demo playlists (see details below) and I can't say that it is love at first listen. 

Overall, I feel like the sound has taken a step backward when compared to my TSRP's.  The music is less liquid, extended, and airy sounding.  There is a bit of harshness in vocals and definitely less body and depth.  While the bass draws more attention to itself than with the TSRP's, it is less tight and articulate.

Keep in mind I only have about 3 1/2 hours on the Black Treasures and reserve the right to change my views and thoughts as more hours get on the Black Treasures.  I also don't have the Herbie's Rx Tube Dampers on them like I did with the TSRP's.

Demo Playlist (thanks Rydenfan for the great selection):

Corinne Bailey Rae - Like a Star
Kate Walsh - Your Song
Ray LaMontagne - You Can Bring me Flowers
The Decemberists - The Crane Wife 3
Ben Harper - Burn One Down
Ben Harper - Lay There & Hate Me
Michael Franti & Spearhead - Never Too Late
STS9 - GLOgli
Medeski, Martin & Wood - Miami Gato
Pink Floyd - Another Brick in the Wall Pt.2
Dave & Tim - Seek Up
Charlie Hayden & Pat Methany - First Song (For Ruth)
Phish (7/6/98) - Ghost

George

[Marco Prozzo]

Well the Black Treasures are in the system and running through one of my demo playlists (see details below) and I can't say that it is love at first listen. 

Overall, I feel like the sound has taken a step backward when compared to my TSRP's.  The music is less liquid, extended, and airy sounding.  There is a bit of harshness in vocals and definitely less body and depth.  While the bass draws more attention to itself than with the TSRP's, it is less tight and articulate.

Keep in mind I only have about 3 1/2 hours on the Black Treasures and reserve the right to change my views and thoughts as more hours get on the Black Treasures.  I also don't have the Herbie's Rx Tube Dampers on them like I did with the TSRP's.

<snip>
George

Give them time, George.  That's more akin to my experience straight out of the box.  Per my previous post; Dan confirmed that circuit is running in class A so all you need to do is to leave the analog circuit switched on to give them full current. 

Look forward to hearing how they change for you.

[dminches]

Dan confirmed that circuit is running in class A

What does this mean?

[Marco Prozzo]

What does this mean?

In a simplistic metaphor, that may have been already shared here, it would be like if your car came to a stop and remained idling with a wide open throttle.  Basically the tubes are idling at full-current.  Someone correct me if I'm off base with that description.

[Bigfish]

My Black Treasures continue to burn-in quite nicely.  I was noticing some very nice tight bass yesterday, the likes of which I have not heard with that cut of music before.  My friend, Peter, who also has a MWTP is coming by tonight for some take-out Chinese and listening.  We'll have my BT tubes, along with a pair of TSR's, my KenRads, and Peter's bringing a couple of 7n7 variants he likes and his Loctal adapter.  Should be an interesting comparison.  Downside of trying to compare these output tubes is that we don't have another device to keep tubes warmed up in  Anyway, I'll post some impressions if all goes well.

I will certainly be very interested to read your comments after the session!

Ken

[Marco Prozzo]

My friend, Peter (Peter_S here, and on Audiogon), came over tonight for a bit of tube rolling in the MWTP.  He’s not been reading anything at all about the Black Treasure tubes (hasn’t been on this thread for a long, long time), and had no real preconceptions about them except that I had told him my initial experience with them and that they were turning out to be very nice tubes that he should hear.  He has been playing with the 7N7 variants and agreed to bring over his Loctal adapters and several 7N7 options.  We realized in looking at all the options, that we needed to narrow things down a bit so we chose 5 different output tubes to compare.

A few notes on our comparisons: This is by no means a highly scientific trial done with rigorous standards.  It was not blind – we did both know just what we were listening to.  Selections were not level-matched, except the best we could muster by ear. Each time we inserted a new pair of driver tubes we allowed them to warm-up for approximately 15 minutes, which made this a rather lengthy session.  We chose five  different cuts of music that we were both familiar with and that represented some diversity (but certainly not the entire spectrum as classical was sadly omitted for time’s sake).  So what I’m getting at here is this was a very casually conducted tube rolling session, but I do feel the differences were quite clear, and sometimes quite surprising, as you will see by the results.  YMMV, as always.

The music we chose to listen to:

Rickie Lee Jones, Bye Bye Blackbird, from “Pop Pop”  (female vocals, soundstaging)

Antony, The Lake, from “The Lake” (EP) (black background, stark vocals and piano)

Radiohead, Pack’t Like Sardines, from “Amnesiac” (very dense, demanding layered, bass-driven with meters almost constantly in overdrive)

Achirana, The Spell (remarkable soundstaging, instrumental finesse, challenging instrumental material)

Greg Brown, Waiting On You, form “Covenant” (deep chesty male vocals)

System: MWTP, MW 36.5 with PS upgrade, MW KWA150, Coincident Super Eclipse III, good wire, some room treatment. 

The Black Treasures I have probably have about 80+ hours or so of burn-in at this point.  The TSR’s are 1942’s black glass.  The KenRad’s are early 50’s I believe and have plenty over 100 hours. The 7N7’s Peter brought are from Andy at Vintage Tube Services (don’t know how much time he’s put on them). He brought others, but these were the two we chose to test as he knew he liked them – One was the more scarce Tall-bottle, this one labeled Philco, the other was the more common short-bottle which Peter says were only bade by Sylvania and relabled with various brands.

Without further ado, and for whatever it may be worth, here is our impressions of the tubes.  We basically agreed on many details, and had only one preference differ in our ordering of our personal preferences of the five pairs of output tubes.  Oh, I forgot to mention the EML mesh was doing rectification duties the entire time.  Below is our ranking of how which we preferred, the first number is my rank, the second, Peter’s.



1/1 Black Treasure CV181Z  Best balance of qualities among all 5.  Clear and resolving without being aggressive or at all strident.  Good soundstage, although topped by Philco Tall Bottle.  Best bass of all, deep and well resolved.  Great sustain. Symbols and Piano sounded particularly natural.

2/2  Short Bottle 7N7
A lot of sustain.  Closer to Black Treasure in many respects than any of the others. A bit sibilant on The Lake. Nice soundstage.  I thought they were ever so slightly harder-edged than BT if I had to make a distinction.  There were some details brought out with these tubes that we did not notice with other tubes.

3/4 KenRad VT231
Nice sounding, easy to like, didn’t do anything wrong, yet not as engaging when directly compared like this, didn’t have the snap or crispness of short bottle or BT.  Very easy to enjoy on its own merits though.

4/3Philco Tall Bottle 7N7
Widest soundstage. Vocals can get aggressive or artificial (mostly on Greg Brown, could be recording). Overall a more forward presentation, with clarity and  good separation (both 7n7 tubes shared that quality, though this tall version could tend to sound aggressive at times)

5/5 Tungsol Round Plate TSR
Soundstage muddied on busy music, vocals a bit veiled, more laid back, lost shimmer on high end, lost splash, lost sustain.  Midrange (vocal) bump pushed vocals forward and the extremes back.  Shockingly, to both of us, we found the TSR’s here to be the least favorite for both of us among the five we tested.  This was entirely unexpected.  Peter has a good tester and he’s going to test them this weekend.


Overall, we both ended up preferring the very even-handed qualities of the Black Treasures.  They just seemed to do everything better and we really could not find fault with them.  They were lively and detailed, clear and natural with great soundstaging and great sustain.  They took the most challenging passages in stride.  They were on the forward side of presentation, yet never sounded aggressive.  Not very far behind was the short bottle 7N7 tube (Sylvania rebranded) from Vintage Tube Service. At around $60/pair this represented huge bang for the buck, but the BT’s show them up with really absolutely now weaknesses that would take away from them. The real surprise was how poorly the TSR’s sounded in the lineup and I’m thinking perhaps they’ve just worn out.  We’ll find out when Peter tests them. 

A big thanks to Peter for bringing over his 7n7’s and Loctal adapter, and for lending a golden ear (two actually) to the comparison.  Ian, I’ll bet you’ll have a new customer real soon and a repeat customer in me!