[kitten]

Hi,

As part of my seemingly neverending quest for a decent integrated amp I came across RWA and have been looking (lurking?) around here for a while now; just wanted to clarify something:

The 3S has been discontinued. Okay, there are/were presumably good business reasons for this. What I don't get is how this fits in with the original claim of the Sig 30 being ideally suited direct with source -- likely sounding preferable with no preamp unless the preamp is very special indeed [and later we have, e.g., Isabella] -- however, many (most?) listeners do listen to more than one source, which presumably is why the 3S was designed and brought to market, effectively allowing the use of the 30 as a 'full' integrated for those without a pre.

I became aware of RWA only recently and well after the 3S was discontinued but is goes without saying for me I'd go for a 30.2 + 3S today if the combo was available. As it stands now, not sure what I would do or if it's worth the bother: e.g., eventually order 30.2 integrated plus Isabella, listen with and without the Isabella and if the Isabella as a pre was worth it to my ears then return the 30.2 integrated and replace with the power version. Or, if the Isabella didn't suit, return it and either live with the 30.2 with one source only, or return it along with the Isabella if the 30.2's sound plus the compromise of one source on balance didn't cut it for me.

If Vinnie is now suggesting that pre/power is the way RWA is headed (with the integrated gain option there for those who only require one source or already have a pre but want more gain adjustment) then fine -- and it seems to be the way things are headed with the 70.2 monos being power-only now as well --  but no matter how good the Isabella turns out to be, the Sig amps that people have loved to date won't suddenly sound worse for lack of a pre.

I know I could get a source selector from somewhere else, e.g., Decware, but then I'm paying manufacturer B to get manufacturer A's product to work (for my needs) and the B product is not designed with A in mind; more than a visual mismatch, the money spent could result in worse sound.

I do really admire what Vinnie and his team are doing bringing innovative and high quality audio products to market in what's an increasingly tough industry. And concentrating on fewer, more popular and more profitable product lines makes perfect sense for any manufacturer. But to me, discontinuing a 0.4k product, leaving a hole that can only be plugged with a 4.0k/5.5k alternative from the same company, looks a bit.... $$$. 

This isn't supposed to come across as negative and if the Isabella is as good as is being claimed, I probably wouldn't be able to resist buying it       although its preformance (over and above the 30.2/70.2) would have to be such as step up that I couldn't live without it after listening, given the downsides: the cost, another box, two more batteries and two tubes to mantain.

All the best,

kitten.

[Lindsay]

Hi Kitten,
I like you, until recently was on the same quest for the perfect integrated amp. I have had a RWA Sig 30.2 as part of my system for a month now and it has to be the best amplifier I've heard, I think there's plenty of explanations of it's musicality and so fourth in this forum that I wont start . I have a Densen B110 which has a processor bypass, all source components run through the Densen and the pre amp stage is muted, leaving the 30.2 (integrated version) to take care of the music.I have run my CD player direct into the 30.2 and to be honest I don't hear any difference in sound quality.
I agree it would be good if the 3S was still available for those of us that can't afford the Isabella.
This is one of those audio products that lives up to what the people on this forum are saying IMO.
I would go with what ever combination of Red Wine Audio you can afford, I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

Lindsay aa aa

[nonoise]

Hey kitten:
I sympathize with your dilemma. It took me some time to take the plunge and get the 3S and I'm glad I did.
Solely, on looks alone, it was worth it. Sonically, it's not there. I know this is no consolation: it's really too bad it's not made anymore for the reasons you brought up.
I believe there is an earlier thread on that very topic, somewhere here, on what would work with the older Sig 30, and just getting a well made source selector would do the trick. Aesthetics aside, I do believe you can go with the Decware or similar unit, and you'd be set.
Tempting as the Isabella is, I'm perfectly content with the 30.2.
I think you'd be too.

nonoise

[Loftprojection]

I have a feeling that eventually Vinnie might "re-introduce" some of those "lower priced" items like the 3s or even the Sig30, maybe in slightly different flavors.  I mean the guy is basically still a startup and the way it looks he is overwhelmed with orders, he's recently moved into bigger manufacturing space, he's hiring,...  So as his business grows and matures, I would assume he will expand his portfolio and re-introducing lower priced items would definitely reach out to a different customer base, basically his original customer base when he was designing low priced goodies!    Anyway, I guess Vinnie will correct me if I'm completely out to lunch but I have to admit that even though I'm speculating, in reality I think it is something I would personally do if I was in business and it's also something I would like to have access to as a customer.  Or maybe he's going to go even more in the high end type stuff and come up with a never heard before $10k battery powered Vinnie Special Reference Home Theater Processor!     Just joking Vinnie!

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Kitten and Lindsay,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum!

Kitten,

Yes, the Signature 3S was discontinued in Sept. 2007 when we released the Signature 30.2 and 70.2 units.  We knew we were going to become very busy with the 30.2 and 70.2 (and all the upgrades), and we decided that we had to trim out some products and mods. 

I actually have one Signature 3S left in stock (I guess we can call it "new old stock"  ).  Please contact me if interested.

Another option that we have entertained is converting the Signature 30.2's RCA output jacks to another pair of INPUT jacks, and installing a mini-toggle switch on the back next to the RCA jacks to select "input 1" and "input 2."  Of course, the only gives you 2 inputs, but for some 
listeners that is all that is needed.  Adding this feature will cost extra, but not as much as the Signature 3S   

What I don't get is how this fits in with the original claim of the Sig 30 being ideally suited direct with source -- likely sounding preferable with no preamp unless the preamp is very special indeed [and later we have, e.g., Isabella] -- however, many (most?) listeners do listen to more than one source, which presumably is why the 3S was designed and brought to market, effectively allowing the use of the 30 as a 'full' integrated for those without a pre.

You are correct that a very special preamp is needed to actually enhance the sound of the 30.2 or 70.2s (and provide the input select switching), and this is what we have been working very hard at developing in the Isabella.  Just like our other products, we will be offering a 30-day refund policy with the Isabella.  Simply stated, if it is not the best preamp you have heard (at least in its price range) and if you are not 100% satisfied, we will gladly take it back and offer you a refund. 

is isn't supposed to come across as negative and if the Isabella is as good as is being claimed, I probably wouldn't be able to resist buying it       although its preformance (over and above the 30.2/70.2) would have to be such as step up that I couldn't live without it after listening, given the downsides: the cost, another box, two more batteries and two tubes to mantain.

Exactly... the step up in performance will have you hooked!  aa

The two batteries are very easy to maintain (ala SMART module), and the two tubes will last a very long time (a few years) in the Isabella design and are not expensive and are easy to obtain (just like the batteries). 

Lindsay,

Thank you for your comments and I'm very happy to read you are enjoying your 30.2!

I have a feeling that eventually Vinnie might "re-introduce" some of those "lower priced" items like the 3s or even the Sig30, maybe in slightly different flavors.  I mean the guy is basically still a startup and the way it looks he is overwhelmed with orders, he's recently moved into bigger manufacturing space, he's hiring,...  So as his business grows and matures, I would assume he will expand his portfolio and re-introducing lower priced items would definitely reach out to a different customer base, basically his original customer base when he was designing low priced goodies!

Hi LP,

I would like this very much... in time, I hopefully will be able to do so! 

r maybe he's going to go even more in the high end type stuff and come up with a never heard before $10k battery powered Vinnie Special Reference Home Theater Processor!     Just joking Vinnie!

We'll be sticking with what we are very passionate about... 2-channel.  Actually, I have a few customers who have purchased a couple of 30.2 power amps and a 70.2 (and even a few 70.2s) for a 5.1 HT system and they love it!   

Thanks for all your posts!

Vinnie

[wilsynet]

Vinnie,

The assumption seems to be that only a world class preamp will improve the sound of the 30.2.  But not all of us can immediately afford the Isabella, or other similarly priced active preamps.  Given that some Signature 30.2 owners would like more than one input, then it seems like an input switcher or a passive preamp might be in order.

Would you be willing to recommend an input switcher or passive preamp that would pair well with the Signature 30.2?  Not as well as the Isabella of course, but perhaps well enough to not get in the way of the terrific performance of direct source + 30.2.

Some products that come to mind are:

Promitheus TVC, $360
Decware RSB6, $119

Would these products, especially a passive transformer volume control like the Promitheus TVC, be appropriate to pair with the 30.2?  I understand that in a sense the question potentially undermines future sales of the Isabella, but my thinking is that a $360 passive does not really compete with a $4-5K preamp.

By the way, the Signature 30.2 I just got from you sounds fantastic!  I am amazed on a daily basis.

Wilson

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Wilson,

But not all of us can immediately afford the Isabella, or other similarly priced active preamps.  Given that some Signature 30.2 owners would like more than one input, then it seems like an input switcher or a passive preamp might be in order.

This is a very good point and I completely understand.  Thank you for this post.

Would these products, especially a passive transformer volume control like the Promitheus TVC, be appropriate to pair with the 30.2? 

I do not recommend using any passive preamp (a passive volume control) in front of the Signature 30.2 with built-in stepped attenuator volume control.  The reason is that this version of the 30.2 already has a passive attenuator built-in, and putting another passive volume control (be it a TVC, potentiometer, or stepped attenuator) is not the best match. 

With the 30.2 power amp (no built-in volume), a passive preamp like a TVC and others will work very well if they are of good quality.  There are quite a few companies out there making these and that have very good reputations.

I understand that in a sense the question potentially undermines future sales of the Isabella, but my thinking is that a $360 passive does not really compete with a $4-5K preamp.

Your question is very valid and I do not believe this will have any impact on the sales of the Isabella.... they are totally different.  As you mention, no everyone will be able to afford the Isabella and I completely understand this.  For those on a budget and who need multiple inputs, a 30.2 power amp paired with a good passive preamp should give you very nice results.   

Here is an example:

http://www.goldpt.com/sa4.html

I have also received good feedback from 30.2 power amp owners who are using the Promitheus TVC.

For those who have the 30.2 with built-in volume and need an input select, the Decware RSB6 at $119 sounds like a no-brainer!  Give it a shot!  I cannot make the Signature 3S for $119, and assuming that the RSB6 uses a good quality switch, wiring, and RCA jacks, it should do the trick! 

By the way, the Signature 30.2 I just got from you sounds fantastic!  I am amazed on a daily basis.

Thanks for the feedback!  I'm glad you are enjoying it!   

-Vinnie

[bprice2]

I've been using Mapletree's LR 1 Line Router in front of the Sig 30 for some time now.  It's presence in my system is virtually inaudible.  It's a bit pricey for what it is ($160), but IMO well worth it. 

Just thought I'd throw this out there as an option.

[kitten]

Hi again,

Looking at the alternatives is helpful and I suspect I'm not the only one who's hesitating over this.

Priced as it is, I agree that the Isabella will need to sell based on its own merits rather than as an enabler of the Signature amps.

It would seem to me that if a S3 equivalent could be reintroduced at a later date with a volume control, it would mate nicely with both of the power amps and would allow an easy audition of the 30.2 (and the 70.2!).

Vinnie: depending on the price, I think you'd get a few taking you up on the 2-input option with the 30.2 integrated for those happy with two sources as it's in keeping with the tidy, one-box integrated approach, which many seek. The price differential might need to be fairly modest though, i.e., based on a build from scratch compared with your current offering built from scratch (rather than a customisation on top of the final product now) given the buyer would also be losing an RCA out.

Regarding my own situation, I'll send you an email.    

All the best,

kitten.

[Randy]

I am one who uses a Prometheus TVC with a 30.2 power amp. IMO, it's a match made in heaven. Nevertheless, I will seriously consider the Isabella when it comes out, for the added gain if nothing else. Hard to envision an improved SQ, but I thought the same thing 38 years ago using my all Sansui gear, purchased in a Da Nang px. However, if Vinnie says it's so, I believe him.

[dewar]

Hey Randy,

I've heard good things about the Promethius TVC, does it add anything to the sonic character or the 30.2 or is it merely a transparent source selector? cheers

Bevan

[Randy]

Hey Randy,

I've heard good things about the Promethius TVC, does it add anything to the sonic character or the 30.2 or is it merely a transparent source selector? cheers

Bevan

I can't listen to the amp alone since my CDP doesn't have a volume control, but my previous CDP did, and the TVC was the first preamp I had where I eventually didn't go back to running the CDP straight into the amp. It is that transparent, and adds  or subtracts nothing from the sound - as far as I can tell, and that's what you want a preamp to do for the SQ, nothing actually. Replacing my former amp with the RW 30.2 DID substantially ramp up the overall SQ, but don't ask me to describe exactly what the difference is, just that I love it. But my main goal was to get off the grid, which the 30.2 and the TVC allow you to do, so for me dispensing with grungy AC  is a big part of it. It is thought that a TVC does a better job of maintaining a pure signal than a resistor type passive volume control or pre can, but I don't really know any of the technical stuff, so better not say anymore.

[jrebman]

Just want to mention that I had my 30.2 built with the toggle switch/2 input option and find that it suits me very well.  I really don' see a need for more than 2 sources in any of my systems, and as I don't like the compromises to loading of your main input with whatever you hang off the volume controlled sub outputs, I would never use such an arrangement anyway.  IMO, sub integration is much better when taken as high-level outputs from the binding posts.

I'm actually having another amp built right now that uses only two inputs with a simple, high-quality toggle switch for a selector, and all the amps that I am building, and have built for myself have had this same input arrangement.

Simplicity is good.

-- Jim

[Vinnie R.]

I've been using Mapletree's LR 1 Line Router in front of the Sig 30 for some time now.  It's presence in my system is virtually inaudible.  It's a bit pricey for what it is ($160), but IMO well worth it. 

Just thought I'd throw this out there as an option.

Hi bprice2,

Thanks for sharing... this looks like a good choice, along with the Decware.  Very reasonably priced IMO!

Vinnie: depending on the price, I think you'd get a few taking you up on the 2-input option with the 30.2 integrated for those happy with two sources as it's in keeping with the tidy, one-box integrated approach, which many seek. The price differential might need to be fairly modest though, i.e., based on a build from scratch compared with your current offering built from scratch (rather than a customisation on top of the final product now) given the buyer would also be losing an RCA out.

Regarding my own situation, I'll send you an email.   

Hi Kitten,

I can install the input switch on the 30.2 for $250 (The Signature 3S sold for $500 before it was discontinued).

This is not something that I will have advertised on our website as I do not wish to do too many of these custom installations, but it can be done if our customer really wants it.

I'll be catching up with emails tonight and tomorrow and I'll be sure to respond to yours...

I am one who uses a Prometheus TVC with a 30.2 power amp. IMO, it's a match made in heaven. Nevertheless, I will seriously consider the Isabella when it comes out, for the added gain if nothing else. Hard to envision an improved SQ, but I thought the same thing 38 years ago using my all Sansui gear, purchased in a Da Nang px. However, if Vinnie says it's so, I believe him.

Hi Randy,

Thanks for posting your impressions of the Prometheus TVC... its really nice to get feedback from a 30.2 power amp user!  Glad it is working out so well!  ... and thanks for your confidence in me!      I promise to not disappoint, so please keep your expectations HIGH! 

Just want to mention that I had my 30.2 built with the toggle switch/2 input option and find that it suits me very well.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for chiming in about this.  Yes, the mini toggle switch that I installed in your 30.2 is located very close to the RCA jacks, so the signal path is still kept very short, and the switch is very high quality (with silver contacts) and will last a very long time!

Best regards,

Vinnie

[stevenkelby]

I do not recommend using any passive preamp (a passive volume control) in front of the Signature 30.2 with built-in stepped attenuator volume control.  The reason is that this version of the 30.2 already has a passive attenuator built-in, and putting another passive volume control (be it a TVC, potentiometer, or stepped attenuator) is not the best match. 

For those who have the 30.2 with built-in volume and need an input select, the Decware RSB6 at $119 sounds like a no-brainer!  Give it a shot!  I cannot make the Signature 3S for $119, and assuming that the RSB6 uses a good quality switch, wiring, and RCA jacks, it should do the trick! 

-Vinnie

Thanks for the info.

I am using an active Rotel pre/tuner in front of my volume controlled 30.2 and know it hurts the sound V straight through. I liked the extra gain of the pre though. With Omegas coming in a week or so I won't need the gain, but will need an input selector.

So Decware just sold another RSB6!

[kitten]

Steven: how did you get on with the Decware switch?

[stevenkelby]

Steven: how did you get on with the Decware switch?

Hi Kitten, That's a good question, I wish I could answer it but I haven't received it yet!

I am in Australia but they haven't even charged my card yet. I'll email them now, thanks for reminding me.

Steve.