[aragon63]

--

[Jon L]

Sprague Vitamin Q PIO Capacitor



Sprague “Vitamin Q” capacitors are a beautiful example of how things used to be manufactured right.  These capacitors are built like a tank and sport a special vitamin Q mineral oil to soak the dielectric; the overbuilt Russian oil caps have nothing on these NOS caps when it comes to build quality.  Almost a cult favorite among DIYers over many years, Vitamin Q’s certainly live up to their reputation for great sound quality. 

After the usual rough period of settling in, Vit Q’s came alive with beautiful tonal color, bags of textural contrast, and a sense of immediacy.  There’s a “wetness” to its presentation that is quite beguiling, yet it’s very detailed and sparkling, definitely not polite or overly dark.  If you find the Jensen copper PIO’s a little too refined and buttery smooth in your system, Vit Q’s might fit in very well instead.  On the other hand, many audiophiles prefer that velvety smooth sound, in which case they will likely prefer something like Jensens.  Both offer more openness and air compared to the denser sound of Russian K40y PIO’s, but all three PIO’s are capable of doing music justice with synergistic placement. 

Previously I tried bypassing the Jensens with small Russian Teflon caps to add a litte more sparkle and contrast, but in the end I decided I prefer the Jensens by itself to preserve its own charms.  I have no such desire to bypass the Vit Q because it seems to have enough contrasty sparkle already.  Vit Q’s don’t sound like good polypropylene caps, Teflon caps, polystyrenes, or anything else, really, but they have a unique, involving character that’s hard not to enjoy. 

[kyrill]

that thing looks 50 yrs old ; )
can you still buy them?

[Jon L]

that thing looks 50 yrs old ; )
can you still buy them?

Well, they *are* that old but work great.  A great place to buy them is another problem altogether, though.  Ebay is always an option, but beware of some sellers that advertise "Vitamin Q Type" capacitors that are not the actual Vit Q's..

[Speakerquest]

It is interesting to read your review of the Audiocap Theta, especially since the review on Humble Homemade Hifi is rather bad. Perhaps he didn't wait for the burn-in.. The teflon bypass was obviously a success.  I am wondering about the value of the bypass cap. This has been debated before, without any really good advice that I've read. You used a 1/10th value for the bypass cap, but many people use as little as 1/1000th in crossovers (10microF bypassed with 10 nanoF).  I wonder if anyone has experience of trying different valus ?

[Jon L]

It is interesting to read your review of the Audiocap Theta, especially since the review on Humble Homemade Hifi is rather bad. Perhaps he didn't wait for the burn-in.. The teflon bypass was obviously a success.  I am wondering about the value of the bypass cap. This has been debated before, without any really good advice that I've read. You used a 1/10th value for the bypass cap, but many people use as little as 1/1000th in crossovers (10microF bypassed with 10 nanoF).  I wonder if anyone has experience of trying different valus ?

I'm finding that my experience differs more from the Humble Hifi experience than from other tests, and I believe this must be due the fact Humble Hifi is testing them in speaker crossover, low-voltage situations whereas I'm using them in high-voltage coupling situations. 

Audiocap Thetas and PCU's get high marks in other tests where they are used in electronics. 

[kyrill]

It's been an interesting time since I last posted this thread . My caps came in from rutubes , they sent me k42's instead of k40's . I'm trying to get them switched to what I ordered .

I also had a Massive Heart attack on 6-6-08 and spent 5 days in the ccu ,  4 blockages ,2 stents and 1 more to go in a few weeks . The had to shock me back 3 times (defib is a bitch).

Suddenly , I have less interest in the last nuance of reproduced music and more in developing a more healthy lifesyle . I'm sure the quest for better sound will eventially resume , But right now I would rather play with the grandkids or kiss my wife .

Joey B

forgive me for being off track but i am sure it will be short
How is it now going Joey?

[kyrill]

Red Wine audio from Vinnie uses a very good warm musical sounding Danish cap But i dont know the name of it.
Vinnie uses it in his amps and preamp


Would be a nice cap to test too?

[dweekie]

Would be a nice cap to test too?

Probably not a nice cap to test 

It's likely a Jensen, but we don't know if it's a regularly available model or a custom model.  The exact model won't be revealed, so it's probably best to leave it alone and carry on with the caps that we know will be readily available for use. 

[kyrill]

i see when it is custom made you cannot get it anyway
but when it is an commercially available?

On the photo you see no markings but in the unit itself you can see it. But is that ought to be a secret?
 i dont know that is why I ask

[Joey B]

Hi Kyrill

I haven't checked in on this thread in a while . I'm doing pretty good . been back to work for over 2 months .

I had quite a bit of heart muscle damage . I go in for an echocardiogram in a couple of weeks , I'll find out more then .

I didn't get any joy from the Rutube folks , ever . At least it was'nt a huge lotta cash  . I'm still running Mundorf sil/oils in my Nos/Dac and Ext. Foreplay III preamp . My Arc high def 100.2 amp was down for 3 1/2 months . (Mostly my fault for not getting it in for repair and waiting to see how contract negotiations were going at work) 

Thanks Jon for your continued diligence in tracking down high quality caps .

Joey B.

[Jon L]

Hi Kyrill

I had quite a bit of heart muscle damage . I go in for an echocardiogram in a couple of weeks , I'll find out more then .

Thanks Jon for your continued diligence in tracking down high quality caps .

Joey B.

Good luck with the echo, and thanks for the kind words.

Incredibly for me, I haven't had the urge to constantly change caps for a long time now.  The caps I now have in my amps are musical enough and accurate enough for me to simply enjoy great music.  Funny thing is, these caps cost a small fraction of the uber mega $$ caps I have at my disposal 

For example, the Audiocap Theta+Russian teflon bypass is fitting my 2A3 SET like a glove, sounding simply ravishing, while the lowly Vitamin Q is holding fort in my EL84 single-ended pentode with its own lovely flavor.  Who would have thunk??

[BobM]

I recently used the Russian teflons that I got on the group buy as bypasses in my speakers. I used them first on the tweeter circuit, bypassing Sonicap I's. In a nutshell - wider soundstage, great extension without fatigue, air, grace, texture ... all the good things.


I then tried them as a bypass on the mid/bass driver. Forward sounding, lack of texture, loss of image detail ... not good at all. The whole speaker balance shifted upward and the imaging and soundstaging suffered badly.

So I took them off the mid/bass driver and put a Sonicap II back in as a bypass and all is well in speakerland again.

Caveat Emptor on where you use these babies. They will probably work differently in each application, just like any other cap, so don't think that one person's success (or failure) should stop you from experimenting yourself.

Thanks for this thread. Lots of great information. It should be put into the FAQ section (like Joe's tube lore over at Audio Asylum) so that others can benefit from the observations it contains.

Enjoy,
Bob

(updated - I had my I's and II's and III's mixed up when referencing the Sonicaps)

[KS]

bypassing Sonicap II's.put a Sonicap III back in as a bypass

...ummmmm...Sonicap Gen II are often used as a bypass cap, not a cap to be bypassed, and there is no such critter as a Sonicap III.

"The Gen I is basically a fairly balanced capacitor.  However, some find our "balanced" slightly thin and bright compared to the more lush "colored" capacitors which would include the Gen II.  While the Gen II has a nice Midrange bloom, Gen I has a slight advantage on the freq extremes (top and bottom).  In many applications, larger values of Gen I bypassed with smaller values of Gen II yield a very favorable result.  the Sonicap Platinum posses the best combination of sonic characteristics available in a capacitor today.  It is very fast, but full and rich.  The presentation is ultra smooth without loss of detail, focus, or dynamics."
http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicap.htm 

I have crossover network Sonicap Gen I capacitors bypassed with Gen II, and some I've upgraded to Platinum bypasses.  Very, very nice, open, clear, accurate sound, even better with the Platinums.

[KT]

Interesting observations about the Vit-Q's, Jon.

Some years ago when I was just getting started in DIY, there used to be a surplus electronics dealer in my town, and every now and then they would have grab bags of parts for very cheap. This was in the early/mid '90s when the whole SET movement was just picking up in the US.

I acquired a bunch of Vitamin Q's at that time, having heard raves about them from various media sources.

I tried them in my Audio Note Kit One 300B amp and didn't like them at all. My impression was that they made the music muddy, thick, dark, extremely veiled and slow, with very little leading edge bite or slam. I thought the aluminum foil, and later the copper foil, Jensens sounded much, much better in that amp.

Maybe it was that particular circuit, lack of burn-in, my specific system, my sonic preferences at the time, or maybe that's just the way they were, but I did not like them in my system for those reasons.

Your observations make me want to pull them out and try them again, though.

It's interesting, but I've heard both fanatical rave reviews of the Vit Q's and also of folks who have had the same observations about the thickness and muddiness that I had. So maybe their performance is very system/application dependent.

Incidentally, I also acquired some Westcap branded caps which look nearly identical to the Vit-Q's and which sound awesome in the crossover of my Klipsch Heresies speakers.

I also had the "Audio 1" brand oil cap upgrade (looked to be the same type of construction as the vintage Vit-Q's and Westcaps) in my Cary preamp, and that was also awful in the same way described above.

Not all vintage oilers are the same, of course, but what mixed results.

I'm very curious to hear if anyone else has had experience with Vit-Q's or other vintage metal-cased oil caps and how those worked out for them.

Thanks,
KT

[Jon L]

Interesting observations about the Vit-Q's, Jon.

I tried them in my Audio Note Kit One 300B amp and didn't like them at all. My impression was that they made the music muddy, thick, dark, extremely veiled and slow, with very little leading edge bite or slam. I thought the aluminum foil, and later the copper foil, Jensens sounded much, much better in that amp.

With oil caps, I find that they don't hit their stride and open up until playing for *days* in the amp, even if the cap was pre-burned-in. 

Even after settling in, I like Vit Q's the best in "neutral" amps, not "lush" amps.  I like my 2A3 SET amp a lot, but the best cap for that is Audiocap Theta bypassed with teflons.  Most 300B SET would be pretty much what you don't want to use Vit Q's in. 

Vit Q sounds the opposite of thick and muddy in my single-ended Pentode Almarro, which is far-more detailed, fast, forward than most SET's. 

Some people also report certain uF/Voltage values of the same cap to be of varying sound quality, so who knows... 

[andyr]

Another met poly cap that has my interest is the Axon Aeon caps.  They are found in Nelson Pass's B1 buffer.  They are supposedly made by Solen, but I am unsure if it is merely a label change or not.  Anyone have any experience with these caps?   http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=SC&Category_Code=axoncap

I today changed the 1uF Axon Aeon coupling caps that came as standard in my phono stage to Mundorf Silver in Oil.  It's early days but (much as I have the utmost respect for Nelson Pass  ) I seem to be getting more delicacy, definition and smoothness.

Regards,

Andy

[denverdoc]

Ten pages on caps--get a life dudes! Bet my house (if I had one) whether any one could reliably ............. But hey its all fun and in a passionate pursuit of what we al so dearly care about. Just thought I'd toss in a dissenting opinion, which in this case is about as sane as pi*onion--the one many layered, the other irrational.

[rpf]

The thing I worry about AudioCap PCU, other than teflon-like price, is the use of copper foils and oxidation.  Jensen gets away with it b/c the oil tends to retard oxidation, but PCU is copper foil wrapped in polypropylene film, so I'd be worried about slow oxidation and sonic degradation over time that you can't see, as slow changes tend to be hard to notice..  Only way to find out is to crack open an older PCU and see 

Jon,

Re: the above point, this is from the AudioCap (http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/) website (italics mine):

Exotica Copper Foil Polypropylene Film PCU
This series, with copper foil, has low distortion and provides superbly clean, clear performance. It is especially suitable for ultra-high frequencies, bringing a remarkable clarity in this sonic range. Special manufacturing techniques are employed to insure that copper will remain reliable and provide high performance over time. The gold-plated OFHC lead wires provide long-term reliability, superior to silver wires owing to gold's non-oxidizing properties; the matching of copper foil with copper leads ensures long-term high performance.

As you like the AudioCap Thetas in some applications, I'd be very curious to hear how the PCUs compare to your favorites (but I'm not having them taken out of my amps  ).

Rob

[tolvix]

hello
I read 10 pages of comments.
I do really compliments for the hard work .. 
I be curious to change my capacitors signal in my phono state solid ...
you have any advice .. 
thanks and greetings