[vegasdave]

James--

Have you guys considered making a s.o.t.a. analog eq and/or including it in your preamps?

In my opinion, eq can be a valuable tool. Especially with cds.

Thanks for your time.

-Dave

[James Tanner]

James--

Have you guys considered making a s.o.t.a. analog eq and/or including it in your preamps?

In my opinion, eq can be a valuable tool. Especially with cds.

Thanks for your time.

-Dave

Hi Dave,

'YES' we did and 'NO' we decided against it.

james

[vegasdave]

James, may I ask why you decided against it?

[James Tanner]

James, may I ask why you decided against it?

Hi Dave,

It is a matter of retaining phase and timing throughout the signal path.  Each musical sound is comprised of several different tones, or harmonics, each having its own amplitude, time and phase relationships with the others. To completely preserve the unique character of each sound, it is necessary to preserve all of this information.

As an example the ear/brain determines direction or position of a sound in two ways - amplitude and timing. But timing is the critical component of where the sound of something is coming from.  Most products (especially speakers) rely on level to determine where the sound is located within the soundfield. We feel that maintaining both the amplitude phase and the timing of the signal is a critical component of maintaining a realistic sound stage with excellent images and position of instruments (have a listen to the Quad electrostatic or Thiel speakers as an example). Equalizers screw with that phase and timing issue to the point where we feel it does more harm than good.

Also equalizers tend to 'equalize' in a very small listening window so although the frequency response at the listening location may be flat everywhere else in the room is will be worst than if you just left things alone. Remember that the ear/brain hears the direct sound but also the reflected sound (it's called power response) in the room and if the direct to reflected energy is out of balance it does not sound natural.

james

[vegasdave]

I see. However, an eq can compensate for not so good program material. That's what I'm getting at.

Maybe a better idea is to biamp with your 10B crossover. True?

[Phil A]

I see. However, an eq can compensate for not so good program material. That's what I'm getting at.

Maybe a better idea is to biamp with your 10B crossover. True?

Many moons ago, I had a parametric equalizer (it was a Phase Linear - I forget if it was 2 or 3 bands).  I ended up using it between an old time delay (for surround sound in the old days before Dolby) and an outboard power amp before selling it a long time ago.  Too many audiophiles overlook the most important component the room itself.  Before one tries to add add'l electronics into the chain a room analysis is good to do.  I have a one third octave RTA but you can use an SPL meter with test tones either on a disc or downloaded.  Rivesaudio.com even make a $21 test disc that compensates for the Radio Shack analog SPL meter.  Without knowing the acoustical properties of your room, an equalizer is shooting in the dark to a degree.  A crossover is a different animal althogether (many moons ago I used one of those too - had an old Dahlquist electronic crossover with a Dahlquist sub - long before home theater - when I decorated my cave walls ).  Can an equalizer make a lousy recording sound less lousy - yes it can - if it is bright you can turn down 6k or Hk Hz and take away some of the highs too as it doesn't discriminate on what it cuts or boosts.

[James Tanner]

I see. However, an eq can compensate for not so good program material. That's what I'm getting at.

Maybe a better idea is to biamp with your 10B crossover. True?

HI Dave,

I would agree with Phil - try fixing the acoustics of the room or moving the speakers around before moving in the direction of equalizers.

ajesm

[KeithA]

I see. However, an eq can compensate for not so good program material. That's what I'm getting at.

That material......I call 'Car Tunes'

Keith

[Mag]

What about the psychoacoustics?
My understanding is we perceive bass at a lower volume than the upper freq. of recorded material. I use to have everything set at flat response, but I discovered for bass, this doesn't sound realistic. So I use a graphic equalizer to raise the bass freq. 6 decibels. It still doesn't make drums for example as good as the real thing, just more convincing playback.
Is there another better way to boost bass without using an equalizer?

[Phil A]

What about the psychoacoustics?
My understanding is we perceive bass at a lower volume than the upper freq. of recorded material. I use to have everything set at flat response, but I discovered for bass, this doesn't sound realistic. So I use a graphic equalizer to raise the bass freq. 6 decibels. It still doesn't make drums for example as good as the real thing, just more convincing playback.
Is there another better way to boost bass without using an equalizer?

I take it you boost the bass due to the fact you like it higher?  Basically what you're are doing is using a more fine tuned tone control.  A rec'r or preamp with tone controls may just give you the ability to boost the bass at a single fixed frequency.  Have you measured the frequency response in your room from the listening position?  Have you played with the positioning of the speakers in conjunction with measuring?  I use Rel subs (www.rel.net).  Besides the normal home theater inputs that has a separate very flexible crossover and volume control that takes a signal from your amplifer and you set the crossover and level to mate with your mains so that they fill in the bass where your mains drop off.  You can also use a regular sub in a similar manner that has a variable crossover (although with the Rel you can leave both connections and use one or the other).  I use a pair of Rels for the front channels (Bryston 14BSST, Bryston SP1.7, Thiel 3.7s) and in my room they are crossed over at 22HZ.  I have room treatments for bass and midrange.  The frequency response from the listening position for the bass is flat from 25 to 80HZ and yes the bass is realistic.  A couple of my favorite CD cuts for testing bass are "The Embrace" from Al Di Meola's album "Kiss My Axe" and you can feel the drums, the other is "Jazz Variants" from the album "La Bamba" by the Ozone Percussion Group (there's more good cuts too).  Another one I like lots is a live album on a hybrid multi-channel SACD (it's one of my favorite multi-channel ones) and it's "Aint I Good to You" from Greta Matassa's "Live at Tula's" on Jazz Stream records.  The drums at the end are awesone.

[Mag]

If it were just the lower bass freq. then a sub would be sufficient. However I am boosting the upper bass freq. from 80 hz tapering off at 400 hz. It is these freq. that are more vital to the music content.
When I was young living at home with parents. I use to cut the lower bass freq. with my equalizer as it was these freq. that drove my mom nuts. She was hard of hearing and needed hearing aids. These lower bass freq. complete the sound spectrum making music sound fuller but aren't absolutely necasarry for the enjoyment of music.
My sub is only good from 120 hz down. Your typical speaker can play down to 80 hz. The majority of instrument don't go below 80 hz, so it's really the upper bass freq. that I'm concerned with where instruments exhibit their harmonic characteristics.

[Phil A]

If it were just the lower bass freq. then a sub would be sufficient. However I am boosting the upper bass freq. from 80 hz tapering off at 400 hz. It is these freq. that are more vital to the music content.
When I was young living at home with parents. I use to cut the lower bass freq. with my equalizer as it was these freq. that drove my mom nuts. She was hard of hearing and needed hearing aids. These lower bass freq. complete the sound spectrum making music sound fuller but aren't absolutely necasarry for the enjoyment of music.
My sub is only good from 120 hz down. Your typical speaker can play down to 80 hz. The majority of instrument don't go below 80 hz, so it's really the upper bass freq. that I'm concerned with where instruments exhibit their harmonic characteristics.

As noted it depends on whether you are doing this for personal preference (which is fine) or have some measured frequency dips in you room due to the room and speaker positioning.  There's plenty of musical content below 80HZ and plenty of speakers that play below it.  Every instrument starts from the lower octaves up between harmonics and subharmonics.  Play even a solo instrument recording you wouldn't typically think of having bass and cut out the lower frequencies.  Crossing a sub over in a typical home theater set-up with the crossover built into many rec'rs and you could easily have room problems that the settings don't help.  I wouldn't call something playing 120Hz a sub.  What speakers and what amplication are you using and how big is the room (and what is it like - carpeted?) and where is the positioning of the speakers in relation to your listening position and room surfaces?

[Mag]

It is my preference after having heard the psycho-acoutics of listening to a recording versus a live band. This is in multi-channel soundfield on my av/receiver. At flat response bass freq. sounds entirely unrealistic. The better the recording the less pronounced this deficiency but it's still not enough to compensate for how it really sounds prior to being recorded.
My room is not the issue, see HT thread for picture. Mind you in two channel stereo the bass presentation is different but I still maintain a 6 db bass boost so that playback of recordings sound balanced.
I challenge you to take a piano only recording if you have one. Play it at flat response on your system. Then play it again adding 6 db to upper and lower bass freq.. I believe you will find playback with bass boost more realistic compared to the flat response. A balanced bass perception is vital to how we hear instrument harmonics. If you disagree after trying this, then I will preach no more.

Mag

[vegasdave]

I see. However, an eq can compensate for not so good program material. That's what I'm getting at.

Maybe a better idea is to biamp with your 10B crossover. True?

HI Dave,

I would agree with Phil - try fixing the acoustics of the room or moving the speakers around before moving in the direction of equalizers.

ajesm

James--

Ok, I'll try that. Thanks.

[1oldguy]

Interesting.......I can't add a whole lot to this topic other than to say on my first System I did like the effects of an Equalizer.It was a ten band if memory servers me right.
But at the same time I do realize I am threading new ground building this new system.I do realize sometimes less is more and also sometimes  Less is Less.One step at a time I guess.