[audiotart]

Mechanical and electrical resonance.  So what you are stating is that Bob is going to control the "electrical" resonance of the cable that is made up of a simple foil by doing what?  Is he going to be adding some sort of filter or impedance compensation network?  

Ringing that is heard when certain cables are introduced into a system are due to mechanical resonances (not properly damped or sheathed).  Electrical resonances are due to conductor/dielectric and geometric anomolies that cause non linear distortions and impedance, inductance and resistive mismatches.  

What I am trying to point out is that dealing with electrical resonance for Bobs cables is only done with filtration (whether it be passive or active).  With that being said, what will he be filtering out?  How will SPICE help him with that?  Please explain!

[doug s.]

while i don't think all the name calling is necessary, it doesn't really surprise me - after all, there's only so much that can be done w/a cable, imo.  cable dogma ranks right up there w/religious dogma, imo.  (and i am not going there - talk about stirring the pot!    )  once pricing starts approaching & then surpassing $10/ft, i think you are pissing your money away.  which is why i am w/sts9fan - make it affordable if it's really a good design; it will offer most of the bennies at a fraction of the cost.  (satfrat, do you really think this is stirring up the pot?    )

but, there's no law against pissing your money away, is there?   geoffkait over at machinical dynamica is making a small fortune preying on the gullability of audiophiles. 
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/search2.pl?seller&Geoffkait


ymmv,

doug s.

YEP!

defintely last post in this crapfest 

while you may agree w/me, i am sure others will be happy you have made your last post here.  it's one thing to be a skeptic, it's another to be antagonistic...  amhik...   

doug s.

[Aether Audio]

John,

Once again... I find myself in a debt of much thanks to you.  You summed things up very nicely - especially for those that would demand technical proofs and data.  

As far as comparison testing to prove the reduction in distortion goes... I may eventually get around to that - it sure never hurts.  As I'm sure you are well aware more than most, this is not a trivial matter.  The distortion I'm referring to generally (depending on the quality of components) resides down in the lower realms of dynamic amplitude.  It's a matter of improving resolution and detail while lowering listening fatigue.  As such, these small signals are a bit difficult to measure in the acoustic domain due to noise corruption of the data.  Such testing is also highly dependent on the bandwidth of one's testing equipment.  At this point I don't have access to SOTA test equipment, so constructing meaningful tests within my limitations is not a simple matter.  Not to say I can't, but it would be a lot faster and easier with some new toys.

Nevertheless I do posses some fairly revealing pieces of test gear, and they reside on either side of my head.  I know that's not a basis for objective evidence, but then again my primary concern is validation of my ideas for the most important critic - ME!  Those that have heard our speakers (which I designed) have little trouble trusting me these days regarding most anything I come up with.  

My origination of this thread was primarily for their information.  I am quite content for the rest to remain sceptical for the time being.  That's something as manufactureres that we all deal with anyway, regardless of any claims or evidence.  Therefore such ongoing scepticism is to be expected.  I just choose not to address it - at least at this time anyway.  Everyone must remember... this is the SP Technology circle, of which I am the president of.  I did not post this out in an open forum.  If I had I would have expected to provide evidence - at least within a reasonable time frame.

So...for those of you that want details of design or technical proof of performance... please read what John wrote above and understand.  For the time being, you're not going to get it.  For the rest that know me, trust me and want to give them a shot - let's talk.  Seeing that I'll give you a 30-day trial, you don't have much to risk other than the waste of a little time if you don't like them.  I ain't scared though as I figure your "test instruments" are probably as good as mine.  

As a little side note, the dealer in Japan that I'm building the first pairs for never asked a thing about specs, proof or whatever.  He just wants to listen to them and if he likes them, he'll buy them.  Whaddaya know...who would have ever thunk it could be so simple.

Take care,
-King Bob

PS.

"Cable resonance"

???  Who ever said my design was addressing cable resonance?    I made reference to a type of resonance AND OTHER ERRORS that occur within the SYSTEM  Now... I did say ANY decent cable should avoid ultrasonic resonance - which mine do as well.  But that's only a small aspect of the design.  

revolutionary

??? I never used that word either.  Well...maybe they are after all... seeing that they're made with

"monkey piss and Llama snot"

 

Please folks... if you are of the above persuasion...do us all a favor and just don't buy them!  Geesh, you'd think I had given the Pope the finger or something.  

I, for one, don't believe he would simply design a cable and try and prey upon the gullibility of his customers to profit from their ignorance.

Thanks Dayglow    And you are correct, I would never prey on folks ignorance.  I've already stated how hard they are to make as well as the material cost issue.  Are they worth it all?  Try 'em and see - or not.  Makes no difference to me as I'm sure some will and they'll like them, despite the sceptics.  Oh...and thanks for the knowledge base plug.  Yeah, helping develop 40KW switching/tracking power supplies and their associated amplifiers really helps in the understanding of  something as highly complex as speaker cables.  I know, I know... that type of background can never really prepare one for such infinite mysteries, but it didn't hurt any.

[doug s.]

Quote
I, for one, don't believe he would simply design a cable and try and prey upon the gullibility of his customers to profit from their ignorance.

Thanks Dayglow  Thumbs up  And you are correct, I would never prey on folks ignorance.  I've already stated how hard they are to make as well as the material cost issue.  Are they worth it all?  Try 'em and see - or not.  Makes no difference to me as I'm sure some will and they'll like them, despite the sceptics.  Oh...and thanks for the knowledge base plug.  Yeah, helping develop 40KW switching/tracking power supplies and their associated amplifiers really helps in the understanding of  something as highly complex as speaker cables.  I know, I know... that type of background can never really prepare one for such infinite mysteries, but it didn't hurt any. Rolling Eyes

oh ya - one last thing - i am also w/dayglow on this one.   regardless of what i personally think about expensive cabling! 

doug s.

[audiotart]

Doug.  Thanks for being so grounded and level headed.  Have a beautiful summer.  You are good man.

Bob, I joke becasue I can.  I just didnt appreciate the way you were talking to Porzio.  I really dont think your response was warranted.  Either way, this is America baby!

Jneutron, what I have forgotten about the Bell theories in advanced mathematics you have still to learn.  The formulas that you are referring to are basic.  Basic BS.  I say this because I Love you Brother.  Happy Easter PIMP.  Lighten up would ya!  Dont take yourselves so serious.  All that solder you have been sniffing is hardening your funny bone.

God Bless

[audiotart]

Come on, you can laugh! 

I know, I am still laughing! 

I will pop by every once in awhile for an audiophile comic interlude.  I will try to keep the abuse to a minimum but when you see me take cover BOYS!

Later for now!

[gerald porzio]

As a little side note, the dealer in Japan that I'm building the first pairs for never asked a thing about specs, proof or whatever.  He just wants to listen to them and if he likes them, he'll buy them.  Whaddaya know...who would have ever thunk it could be so simple. Confused

I fail to grasp exactly how the inscrutable wisdom of the Orient advances your position one iota.

[miklorsmith]

Wow, you guys really know how to make friends and influence people.

I for one would feel eternally grateful if I never heard from either of you again.

[WOR Radio]

I fail to grasp exactly how the inscrutable wisdom of the Orient advances your position one iota

I fail to see how "Bob advancing his position" has anything to do with this topic. It is for consumers to decide (with a 30 day money back clause) whether they appreciate the product or not.

Those who have absolutely no inclination of procuring such products will not have any position in changing the minds of those who do.

Isn't this what you are really trying to do is persuade people away from even trying these products? If so, this is not the place and you are failing miserably.

Put me on the list Bob.

[doug s.]

As a little side note, the dealer in Japan that I'm building the first pairs for never asked a thing about specs, proof or whatever.  He just wants to listen to them and if he likes them, he'll buy them.  Whaddaya know...who would have ever thunk it could be so simple. Confused

I fail to grasp exactly how the inscrutable wisdom of the Orient advances your position one iota.

hey - wait a minute - you said you were done posting to this thread.  please live up to your word.

and, in case you were wondering, (which i doubt), the only point bob was making was that some folks make their judgments after trying something, regardless of what is in the "white paper"...  since bob will offer a 30 day money back guarantee to anyone who wants to try his cables, what position is it that you are trying to advance?  (and, please, don't answer - you're done here, remember?  my question is strictly rhetorical & requires no answer.)

doug s.

[JDUBS]

Honestly, thanks guys for "saving" me!  I have no ability to make up my own mind on whether or not to buy something so I appreciate your kindness.   

Buy it or don't....isn't it that easy?!

-Jim

[Aether Audio]

OK... let's tackle this one:

I fail to grasp exactly how the inscrutable wisdom of the Orient advances your position one iota.

What *IS* my "position" to begin with?  I'll tell ya in simple terms.

1)  I designed some cables.

2) They address a source of distortion that heretofore, I haven't seen discussed or addressed elsewhere.

3)  I'm not telling you the source of this distortion or the theory behind how my cables address it because I'm trying to protect my design from being copied.

4)  I believe folks will like them and I'm giving them a 30-day trial to decide.

The gentleman in Japan is addressed by #4.  Simple as that.  My only reason for pointing it out was to make point #4 and how simple this all can be.  It seems some of us want to find nefarious intentions where none exist.  "Witch hunt" comes to mind.  Either that or someone would simply prefer that I not make cables or maybe better yet...that nobody buy them from me... for whatever reason.   That kinda sounds maybe a little nefarious to me.

If you or anyone has ever assumed that by my having started this thread, I have attempted to "prove" anything to anybody, you are sadly mistaken.  Since this is cyberspace, I can't even prove that I am who I present myself to be.  How do you even know I'm Bob Smith, president of SP Technology?  Maybe I'm a government agent in disguise, spying on audiophiles!     

I've raised three sons and have learned that you can't even prove water is wet to those that have their mind's made up otherwise.  Sure, some technical data and test results might help.  But then there would be those that would believe them to be faked...even if they never stated it publicly.  I've been selling speakers for quite a while now and ya know what?  I've always been big on testing, specs etc.  Well... out of all the speakers we've sold, I can count on one hand the number of folks that even asked to see response charts, etc.  Adding to that, I don't think more than 2 or 3 has ever purchased having based a high percentage of their decision on such "proofs."  The kick in the ass is that I can provide tons of proof with them... and it doesn't matter.  Go figure.

The only guys that REALLY care about proof  to any degree are the professional audio people.  Why?  Because they use them as tools to make MONEY and they don't have any to waste on things that can't be proven.  There is a percentage of pros that are into high-end as well and they'll buy into some stuff without proof - but they are in the minority.  The point is, so far...as much as I am into it... technical proof hasn't been the driving force behind our sales in the audiophile market.  Considering that, why should I go out on a limb now to provide it and run the risk of giving away the farm by doing so?  Especially when it probably wouldn't have much effect on sales anyway?  Call me stupid, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

As one last little note for the day, I have to say that I'm relieved that so far... NOBODY appears to have even guessed at the theory involved.  Is it mechanical, electrical... both? ... I ain't tell'n.  The one thing I will say is that even the "smart guys" haven't hinted upon it yet.  From this point forward that is the only information that you will get from me as by the process of elimination, somebody would surly figure it out eventually.

Have fun!
-Bob

[gerald porzio]

Since  cable "RESONANCE" is not audible, you have addressed an issue which doesn't exist in the finest audiophile tradition. Addressing non existant problems goes an awful long way toward creating audiophile myths.

[gerald porzio]

I have nothing against the fact that you designed some cables. Hundreds, if not thousands, have done likewise as the entry price is miniscule since so few cable cos. own production facilities, much less test  equipment. Anyone with the "smarts" to locate an OEM & a few dollars capitalization can design & sell cables. They can all feel free to sell to their hearts content & laugh all the way to the bank. When they make specious claims in whitepapers, I then, & only then, take exception.

[JDUBS]

I have nothing against the fact that you designed some cables. Hundreds, if not thousands, have done likewise as the entry price is miniscule since so few cable cos. own production facilities, much less test  equipment. Anyone with the "smarts" to locate an OEM & a few dollars capitalization can design & sell cables. They can all feel free to sell to their hearts content & laugh all the way to the bank. When they make specious claims in whitepapers, I then, & only then, take exception.

Ha!  Thank you for doing this community a truly admirable service, then!  Consider your good deed for the day, done.

[groovybassist]

Give it a rest gerald.  i think everyone here will be glad you did.

[ted_b]

Come on, you can laugh! 

I know, I am still laughing! 

I will pop by every once in awhile for an audiophile comic interlude.  I will try to keep the abuse to a minimum but when you see me take cover BOYS!

Later for now!

Hopefully the mods will see this trolling and have it removed. We are not interested in random unwelcomed abuse.  Not a laughing matter, really.

And Gerald Porzio, please be true to your word, whatever that may be worth, and leave as promised.  Other AC circles might be more up your alley, but continuing this way on a MFG forum will have you banned from all AC...seems fruitless.

Back to the topic:


Bob, I look forward to my three new Continuums (which will complete my 5.1 SP Tech SOTA music room setup   ), and will report back to AC'ers on the Zero Resonance cables that will be used (as posted earlier on other Rev threads) as umbilicals for my 5 Rev/Continuum Mundorf crossover-to-speaker connections (low pass and high pass each).  I'm beyond words with my daily amazement of the music flowing out of the Revelation setup (with confirmations from the likes of Pat, Joe, Rob and others).  The only downside is that the bar has been raised wayyy up there in anticipation of the arrival of the remaining pieces!!!   

[bhobba]

Hi All

A very interesting thread for sure.

First just a quick question for Bob.  Will he be including his cables as standard for the internal wiring of his speakers?

There is a simple way to rebuff any naysayers about the benefits of Bobs new cable.  A blind listening test. 

I am a regular reader of the Wall Street Journal.  They did a recent piece on hi fi and thought that audible differences betwen cables were all hooey.  So they did a blind listening test with John Atkinson and others from audiophile magazine between monster cable and zip cord.  The journalists from the Wall Street Journal could hear no difference between the cables.  To their surprise not only was John Atkinson and the others from Audiophile able to easily pick the differences blind, but found the monster cables to sound better - I think the words were crisper, slightly more transparent etc.   

I would suggest a similar experiment with Bobs new cables would be most interesting.

Thanks
Bill

[Aether Audio]

Geesh Mr. porzio,

You just don't get it - do ya?  I'll try one more time and not for you, but others that may have come in late.

I have NEVER stated that my design addresses any resonance in the cable itself.  Not saying that the design doesn't take mechanical microphonics into consideration - which they do - but such mechanical vibrations are not the resonances AND OTHER ERRORS (get that, will ya!), that my design is intended to minimize. 

Neither are they the ultrasonic electrical resonances that can occur in a poorly designed speaker cable.  Yes, my design considers those too, but they are not the primary source of distortion that my cable were designed to address.  Got it?

The artifacts that I am referring to are a result of interactions WITHIN THE AMPLIFIER/CABLE/SPEAKER SYSTEM!!!  Hint: Notice the word in large font that begins with the letter "S."


Can I be any clearer?   No matter what, that's gonna have to do because I'm not even going to respond to you again.  Doing so reminds of a Bible verse about casting pearls before... nevermind.  You can post some more though if you want.  By the looks of responses from others, you may not be doing so for long.

TedB,

Let him be.  "Give a man enough rope..."  Anyway...as we spoke earlier...it won't be long now! aa


Bill,

I have a special variation of my cable design built into all of our speakers now.  Since the internal lengths are so short, I can't use the exact same formulation on the inside.  Actually, "Inside" vs. "Outside" the enclosure represents certain differences in the variables and therefore require different treatments.

Interesting tidbit of information regarding the Wall Street Journal.  Maybe we aren't all totally nuts after all.

-Bob

[Russell Dawkins]

I have nothing against the fact that you designed some cables. Hundreds, if not thousands, have done likewise as the entry price is miniscule since so few cable cos. own production facilities, much less test  equipment. Anyone with the "smarts" to locate an OEM & a few dollars capitalization can design & sell cables. They can all feel free to sell to their hearts content & laugh all the way to the bank. When they make specious claims in whitepapers, I then, & only then, take exception.

I am prompted to say "who cares" whether you have nothing against this or that, and whether you take exception. Who are you to play the authority?
You talk as though many here really respect your pronouncements. You haven't even begun to establish your credibility.
First you do that, then you lay down your gospel.