[jneutron]

Could you elaborate on the "balderdash" & "pseudo-scientific rubbish" parts of your statement?

As I stated..""give the impression of a lot of balderdash"" and "".... If I were predisposed...""

The key point I make is "if I were predisposed"..  Basically, my intent was to explain how someone like porzio could view the writings..if that is what they had the inclination to do.

It was not a comment on the existance of balderdash and such, just how it could be interpreted.

I admit that the paper is certainly "vague" in various aspects, but there's a darn good reason for that.

The "darn good reason" for that is you have mouths to feed, so giving up the bank to satisfy those who want theory, equations, test setups, drawings, test results.....could certainly compromise any advantage you could garner at this early stage..while satisfying a group of individuals who in all likelihood, never buy your wires anyway.  I personally require ""theory, equations, test setups, drawings, test results"" myself..but face it, I'm a geek..no apologies...

I certainly understand your dillemma, and see no graceful way to satisfy both camps.

And finally, thanks for your support.  Believe me. that spreadsheet has been my right arm along with SPICE.  Were it not for you, I may have just said "screw it."

Take care my friend!!!
-Bob

Your welcome.  The science, theory, equations, spreadsheet....they are all tools to help us do our job.  At least I know that somebody is actually using the equations to design the um, "aspects" shall we say... of the cables.

Of course, time will tell if the parameters you choose to design to are of merit..but remember, you're still going to get people like porzio as long as you don't provide atomic level details of your product along with hard test data...

Cheers, John

[audiotart]

In reply to Bob's Zero Resonance cables, I would like to add my two cents.  After looking through this thread I realized that Bob (I guees that is his name) bacame very upset with Porzio because of a brief opinion that contradicted that of the KING ( Bob again, I guess).  In all actuality, I find myself having to defend Porzio by default.  I can tell you that Porzio is more than likely right in his assumption of Bobs cables even though his assumption is more than likely not based in science.

Bob, I question your design becasue the "white paper" was just that, WHITE!  It may have well as been a white screen with no words on it becasue with all that you said, you still said nothing!!

Sorry Bob but you are not in the know as far as cable design.  That became obvious to me after reading your so very defensive retort to Porzio.

Cable resonance has been a subject that most successful cable companies have pondered for some time now.  That is why some companies with some fairly good litz designs use transparency robbing thick jackets.  It at times is a necessary evil to make a thick cable!  Controlling cable resonance is a small part of a good design. 

You are using atiquated technology with your choice of ribbons or foils.  It is well known (at least by those that know about true cable design) that foils and ribbons are called the "poor mans litz".  Foils and ribbons can sound very nice when done properly and terminated with low mass, pure spades or the like.  However, there is nothing revolutionary about using Mundorf foil for a speakers cable.  Even if you found the theoretically perfect foils (wide and thin, pure metals) there is nothing that you can do to it to make it worth the money that you are talking about.

You are usning snake oil to sell your cables.  I would love to take this further with you as I probably dont know nearly as much about cable design as you.  I am sure that I could learn something from you.

[miklorsmith]

Nice first post.

This oughta be fun.

[doug s.]

reflex,

sts9fan,

Well...my passion isn't to sell as many cables as I can at such a price that I'm forced to in order to make a buck.  Were I to do that I might end up with a moderately thriving cable business that eats up all my time and that I'm enslaved to just to survive.  HELP!!!...somebody get me my pills!  I'm shaking from the flashbacks of already having accomplished that with speakers!!!

-Bob

i'm w/sts9fan.  make this cable cheaply, w/belden, etc. - it may give +98% of the benefits of the spendy stuff.  let folks get the benefits, w/o the high cost.  you don't have to worry about your time - if it really takes off, you won't be enslaved, you will be making more money.  and, if it still takes time, you can always sub out the design &/or the labor...

doug s.

[audiotart]

I am not trying to stir the pot but I found it almost pathetic that Bob laid into Porzio for what he wrote.  I happen to know a little bit about cable design and from what Bobby Brown wrote in his white paper, I am not sure whether or not he knows what he is talking about.

In the spirit of free speech, I would love to debate this with Bob and John.

I also say to John, why shouldn't people be privy to what it is they are getting in a cable design?  Why should I trust your or Bob's word for it?  If someone is going to spend their hard earned money on your products at least tell them what they are getting.  If it's monkey piss and Llama snot just let them know.  They'll probably buy it anyway!!!!!  

For God's sake (or Bob's sake for that matter), just the fact that he is using foil for the basis of his design makes me curious as to how he will effectively control resonance.  Maybe he will sandwich the foil between two massive pieces of Bubuinga.  Or is he going to do it with resistors which would be so revolutionary that it will redefine the whole cable industry.

There are already quite a few well designed cables out there (Shunyata Lyra, Nordost Valhalla, Silver Audio Symphony 48) that are in and around that price point.  Lets not forget the ones that are infused with snake oil like Big Bobby's that are simply making the cable market even more laughable by the second.

[Daygloworange]

I also say to John, why shouldn't people be privy to what it is they are getting in a cable design?  Why should I trust your or Bob's word for it?  If someone is going to spend their hard earned money on your products at least tell them what they are getting.  

Because you're only paying for the cable, not the intellectual properties of the design of said cable.


You can buy all the KFC chicken you want, they still won't give you the recipe to their secret spice blend....

Cheers

[Cacophonix]

Because you're only paying for the cable, not the intellectual properties of the design of said cable.
You can buy all the KFC chicken you want, they still won't give you the recipe to their secret spice blend....

Cheers

 

[Martyn]

Pretty sad 1st post tart,,,,,,   ,,,,, and the 2nd post ain't no better.   

I thought it was rather better than Bob's tirade against Porzio.

[audiotart]

True in the case of the Colonel!  However, you are not paying for the intellectual property of Bobs mind.  You are paying for mediocre materials and an old design.  this is fact.

There is nothing Bob can do to the foil cable to make them revolutionary.  John knows this also.  He wont admit it but he knows it!

Just another cable to be sold to the masses for excessive profit and incremental return (if any at all).

Just a point of note, maybe Bobs cables will be so pricey because he will be cryoing them.  We all know how crazy, retarted, unbeleivable results you get from cryoing, right!!!!!

[smccull]

From the sidelines, I have to agree with Dayglo here. The manufacturer has no obligation to reveal their design secrets and the reader has no obligation to buy them, figuratively or literally. I do, however, think some of the rhetoric here is a bit strong and should perhaps be moved to Audio Asylum, or some other flame-friendly forum. AC is better than one sentence jibes.

[gerald porzio]

Does the Kentucky Fried grease go on the cables before cryoing & cooking. MMMM! Good!

[audiotart]

Sorry all.  I am out of line here.

I guess I had a bad day at work.  The industry that I work in is starting to get a little slow these days and profits are down.  I used to sell alot but most people are starting to catch on to me.  I thought that snake oil and monkey piss would be all the rage for years to come.

Dear audiophiles,

There is nothing wrong with you.  You have a passion for sound that is important to you and that is why you pursue perfection in sound.  However, it is through false claims and pseudo-science that your journey is made longer, bordering on unbearable.  You all know about being on the merry go round, right!!!

The days of high end audio are coming to an end because of the internet based snake oil salesmen that make a cable in their garage for $100 and sell it for $1000.  We are to blame for our own demise.  There will soon come a day when pushers of audio gear will be internet based only and auditioning will be a thing of the past.  What have we done to this hobby.  

We shouldnt just take someones word for it!  What is it that you are giving us?  Why is it better?  Why is it better than X,Y,Z......  

The cable market is an easy way for Bob to prey on his existing customers.  If he says it sounds good then it does!  Right choppers!!!!

My love to all of you.  God Bless all of you.

Joe

[Daygloworange]

True in the case of the Colonel!  However, you are not paying for the intellectual property of Bobs mind.  You are paying for mediocre materials and an old design.  this is fact.

There is nothing Bob can do to the foil cable to make them revolutionary.  John knows this also.  He wont admit it but he knows it!

Just another cable to be sold to the masses for excessive profit and incremental return (if any at all).

Just a point of note, maybe Bobs cables will be so pricey because he will be cryoing them.  We all know how crazy, retarted, unbeleivable results you get from cryoing, right!!!!!

audiotart,

Just a friendly suggestion...

Do a little research on Bob before you reach any foregone conclusions and accusations of "Snake Oil". Read some of the sticky's and some of the "white papers" Bob has written in the SP Tech circle first.

Not only is he someone who has invested a lot of time in speaker design, but comes from a longtime background in amp design,and for an audio designer, knows a tremendous amount about how musical instruments make sound and music.

A lot of well known and respected audio engineers and designers wouldn't know what end of a tuba you blow into to make a sound.  

Bob was very much a skeptic once upon a time about a lot of things in audio, but was prompted (by his customers)to investigate further than textbook 101 Electrical Engineering on a number of things. I, for one, don't believe he would simply design a cable and try and prey upon the gullibility of his customers to profit from their ignorance.

For the record, I don't know Bob personally, but have enjoyed reading his posts on various topics about audio.

And for the record, I'm still experimenting with cables, so the jury is still out, in my case, on the topic, despite some interesting personal experiences with cables.

Cheers

[doug s.]

while i don't think all the name calling is necessary, it doesn't really surprise me - after all, there's only so much that can be done w/a cable, imo.  cable dogma ranks right up there w/religious dogma, imo.  (and i am not going there - talk about stirring the pot!    )  once pricing starts approaching & then surpassing $10/ft, i think you are pissing your money away.  which is why i am w/sts9fan - make it affordable if it's really a good design; it will offer most of the bennies at a fraction of the cost.  (satfrat, do you really think this is stirring up the pot?    )

but, there's no law against pissing your money away, is there?   geoffkait over at machinical dynamica is making a small fortune preying on the gullability of audiophiles. 
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/search2.pl?seller&Geoffkait


ymmv,

doug s.

[audiotart]

For the record:

1) Bob makes one of the most dynamically explosive speakers that I have ever heard.

2) Bob's speakers come with a fit and finish that is right up there with the best that I have seen.

3) Bob's speakers are fairly priced in relation to his competition.

4) Bob's obvious knowledge about speaker design is impressive no matter what he knows or does or whether or not he is a "real" designer or not.

The fact is that he makes a great speaker that is backed by whatever knowledge he has amassed from whereever.

Lastly, I would like to state that this has absolutely nothing to do with cable design. Many claims are made in the cable arena.  Most all are bogus.

Thanks for the words of wisdom dayglow.  

[Daygloworange]

Cool man,

Welcome to AudioCircle! 

Cheers

[jneutron]

Cable resonance has been a subject that most successful cable companies have pondered for some time now.  That is why some companies with some fairly good litz designs use transparency robbing thick jackets.  It at times is a necessary evil to make a thick cable!  Controlling cable resonance is a small part of a good design. 

I think Bob is talking about electrical resonance, not mechanical..

You are using atiquated technology with your choice of ribbons or foils.  It is well known (at least by those that know about true cable design) that foils and ribbons are called the "poor mans litz". 

Who are you considering as those in the know?


John

[BrianM]

Given how excellent -- make that "frighteningly realistic" -- Bob's speakers are agreed to be by absolutely everyone I've ever read on the subject, it would seem that the room for improvement to be offered by a speaker cable would have to be pretty small.  The rejoinder would possibly be that only such revealing speakers allow one to appreciate such a cable.  But it's awfully hard to imagine (for me anyway) spending as much on speaker cables as I would for a nice pair of Timepiece Minis.

[Martyn]

Pretty sad 1st post tart,,,,,,   ,,,,, and the 2nd post ain't no better.   

I thought it was rather better than Bob's tirade against Porzio.

True in the case of the Colonel!  However, you are not paying for the intellectual property of Bobs mind.  You are paying for mediocre materials and an old design.  this is fact.

There is nothing Bob can do to the foil cable to make them revolutionary.  John knows this also.  He wont admit it but he knows it!

Just another cable to be sold to the masses for excessive profit and incremental return (if any at all).

Just a point of note, maybe Bobs cables will be so pricey because he will be cryoing them.  We all know how crazy, retarted, unbeleivable results you get from cryoing, right!!!!!  
 

And you actually like this BS better? Whatever floats your boat I guess.  

I'm outta here,,,, the BS is too deep for my liking. Hopefully at some point Bob will flush with RID-X.  

Cheers,
Robin

Robin, you may not have noticed that I was responding to your post that commented on AT's first and second posts. I was not including his subsequent post responding to references to KFC and indeed could not have done so since that post followed mine.

[jneutron]

In the spirit of free speech, I would love to debate this with Bob and John.

I'm here..

I also say to John, why shouldn't people be privy to what it is they are getting in a cable design?

Some will want the details, some won't.  Bob made a choice to keep whatever he considers IP as under wraps.  Can't blame him for that.  What I did tell him was that the white paper didn't float my boat, so to speak..

Why should I trust your or Bob's word for it?

Why do you worry about my word?? I clarify.

1.  I provided Bob, within this forum I believe, the equations and analysis with which to calculate the capacitance, inductance, characteristic impedance, effective dielectric constant, and speed of propagation for a cable constructed with designed geometry.  Pop in some parameters, and the others fall out.   For example, all cables regardless of design, follow the rule LC = 1034 EDC.  L in nh per foot, C in pf per foot, EDC being the Effective dielectric constant...I can detail if you wish..  For the same dielectric and geometric aspect ratio, doubling the L halves the C.  This equation sets the bounds below which the LC product cannot go, and the lower bound is of course for mu and epsilon =1, which is the speed of light.

2.  Bob (from what I remember) noted that he is using this stuff to design his cables.  I do not know what parameters he has chosen for his cables.

3.  I praise the effort to embrace actual physics in the process of designing cables.  I made it easy to do so in the form of a tool.  We all use tools to our benefit..

4.  I can only state that I believe Bob is using those equations, I do not know what he does with the final results.


The tools he is using, needless to say, are the basics..but they are actually quite advanced ..  

Cheers, John

ps...I also do not know Bob.  Nor, have I ever heard his speakers.  Nor seen a cable of his.  The speakers do look nice, from the pics on forum..