[Zero]

Bob,

Since you didn't seek permission to use the word Zero in your product - I'm gunna protect my trademark rights and go Monster on your ass... ! 

[jneutron]

Jneutron, what I have forgotten about the Bell theories in advanced mathematics you have still to learn.  The formulas that you are referring to are basic.  Basic BS.  I say this because I Love you Brother.  Happy Easter PIMP.  Lighten up would ya!  Dont take yourselves so serious.  All that solder you have been sniffing is hardening your funny bone.

God Bless

Hmmm..I guess you have forgotten a lot..

Why is this suddenly a pissing match?

With time you will learn how to discuss with maturity...not now, but maybe in a few decades.

Enlighten us with your understandings of ""Bell theories in advanced mathematics"".



I love the young ones...they are so much fun to play with..

Cheers, John

[mcullinan]

I think we can all agree that if we boil down all that has been said, stir it around a bit, you come to the undeniable conclusion that yes...
“Monster Cables DO SUCK!”
Thank you for your time.
 aa
Mike

[reflex]

Isn't there an age limit here?  All this pissing back and forth and "mine is bigger than yours" sounds so junior high, this thread has become more a hilarious read than anything that could possibly bring forth further enlightenment.

[Double Ugly]

Careful, 'tart.  You obviously have no idea with whom you're dealing.  Lest you be made a fool of, I'd approach "Mr. Neutron" a bit more respectfully, as he's attempted in his comments to you.  We all have superiors, people who are just a bit more intelligent, better educated, more experienced... and IMHO you'd do well to keep that in mind.

Even Einstein had his peers, and even superiors in some areas.

Arrogance and condescension do not wear well on anyone, least of all those in over their collective noggins.  Why you or anyone else would think it an acceptable way to approach people here or anywhere is confounding.

But by all means, be yourself.  Yes, it may lay the groundwork for a surprisingly short stay here at our little corner of the Internet, but that shouldn't stop someone like you from behaving in whatever manner suits you.

[TheChairGuy]

But by all means, be yourself.  Yes, it may lay the groundwork for a surprisingly short stay here at our little corner of the Internet, but that shouldn't stop someone like you from behaving in whatever manner suits you.

Ohhhhhhh, is that ever well said, Jim/DU

[lonewolfny42]

Hey....You guys are distracting Bob for building my speakers...cut it out !!!

[Aether Audio]

Uh - oohhh... 

First it was "Bobby Brown"... now it's "Bobby Balls" eh?   We may now soon see who's are the biggest.  Please recall my statement from page 2:

I never want to limit free speech unless profanity or directly defamatory and/or degrading comments are posted.

This passes the muster as far as I'm concerened.  Worse yet, the ongoing caustic barbs being fired at John... whom I respect and INVITE to participate in MY circle... that I pay for.

Well... 2 guys down.  Anyone want to try for 3?

EDIT:  See... I wasn't kidding.  Any more crap like that will go the same way as well - so be forwarned all.  Now...let's all play nice. 
-Bob

[audiotart]

Sorry (tail between the legs).  I was merely trying to defend the defenseless.  Not my job I guess.

jneutron, I would love to further discuss some designs that I have with you. 

I have a friend that has a wire manufacturing facility here in the Northeast that has been very generous with letting me use his facility to experiment.  I have found a way to braid 96 24ga solid core pure silver conductors around an inner core of exceptionally thin walled teflon tubing.   This has to be performed in a two step process that is very time consuming and not reproducable on a mass scale.  Not that I would ever want to sell cables anyway.  I am actually, believe it or not, a happy electronics engineer by day and a smitten audiophile by night.  Preliminary measurements are very good.  I have the ability to vary the tension applied to this configuration which alters the sound an appreciable amount.  I also have the ability to vary conductor spacing.  I am finding that the braid (litz) configuration that I am employing that with a little bit of science and very good materials that it is possible to obtain a set of cables that pretty much competes with most all out there.   

I have tried using copper conductors with this geometry and the results were quite different (as you would probably expect).  I am now working on a copper set with slight variances in the conductor geometry and spacing.  The use of the teflon inner spacer had to be adjusted also (slightly thicker with a smaller inner diameter).  The O.D. is slightly larger also.

I know that his type of thing is probably old hat to you but I was curious as to your thoughts on conductor geometry and spacing, the use of metals (which do you prefer), mechanical resonance techniques to surpress ringing and your general thoughts on the subject.

Have a blessed day.   

[jneutron]

Sorry (tail between the legs).  I was merely trying to defend the defenseless.  Not my job I guess.

No, defending the defenseless is a good thing.  But you did indeed come on a bit too strong.  (Bob, thanks for intervening, but I wasn't offended..)

jneutron, I would love to further discuss some designs that I have with you. 

Never a problem.  Discussion either online or off is perfectly acceptable.  Not being a wire vendor myself, I have no "designs" on anyones' designs (yah, bad pun intended.  So, IP to me is not an issue.

I have a friend that has a wire manufacturing facility here in the Northeast

Would that be in Lisbon?  If so, I'll soon be giving them a call. Small world.. I have a need for a coupla thousand kilofeet of rad resistant low halogen shielded cable tray rated wire of various types.

I know that his type of thing is probably old hat to you but I was curious as to your thoughts on conductor geometry and spacing, the use of metals (which do you prefer), mechanical resonance techniques to surpress ringing and your general thoughts on the subject.

It may be old hat to me, it may not...

Cheers, John

[Aether Audio]

audiotart,

   Very nice!  And now... it would be very interesting to hear John's response.  Yo-hoo...John, ya out there.  Come back and play with us In fact, even though I'm doing ribbons right now, I'm still very interested in the aspects of cable design using standard round wire.

Question for all:  As I understand it, as frequency increases not only does skin depth decrease, but the E-Field also tends to be concentrated more in the dielectric between conductors of opposite charge.  Makes sense as capacitive reactance is also decreasing, so more charge is being stored.

The reason I ask is that if that be the case, (which I can't imagine that it's not), then that seems to mean (this is where I get screwy on it) that in any kind of Litz construction the field is "jumping" from one dielectric, through air and then into the next dielectric nearest - so on and so on down the wire.  From certain readings, this is supposed to be "bad."  I don't necessarily even buy into the process, let alone the fact that it's bad.

Why?  Well, I worked with Litz based buck convertor inductors (ferrite core)that had a power response out to 2MHz and a small self resonance out around 10MHz (that I had to develop a compensation network for)... and they worked just fine.  Of course, that was a switching app., but they looked pretty darn linear to me on the network analyzer.  They used a Litz braid of some 1500 enameled strands yielding a 1/4-inch conductor that was limp as a noodle.  I always wondered how something like that would have worked for speaker cables.  Since then I've seen a number of people pooh-pooh Litz wire, but I know it sure as heck works as advertised.  So what's the rub?  John? Audiotart?  Don't worry anyone. I'm not planing on building cables made from it - yet. 

-Bob

[gerald porzio]

http://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Accessories/Cables/Cable_Articles/

I'm done w/ the resonance issue. The above site is for the edification of  the, "I know what I hear school". I use the term school loosely.

[audiotart]

Hey Bob and John.  In response to Bobs last post:  strand to strand interaction and so on up and down the wire comes down to the dielectric utilized and geometry. Dividing the signal into many fine gauge individually insulated wires drives self inductance down to insignificantly low levels and enables a design to push geometry and proximity to their full potential in diminishing capacitance and series inductance at the same time.  With properly designed litz cables, capacitance, quality of capacitance, resistance, mutual inductance, self-inductance, phase accuracy, and microphonics are optimized.

This may apply to Bob or not, but, the notion of “impedance matching” within the speaker/amplifier combination/interactoin is important because, theoreticaly, we would rather not have a cable that becomes an unintended or unwanted liability to the crossover design in a loudspeaker, and especially not an additional stressor to the amplifier.  However, with proper material selection, geometry and adequate aggregate gaugeing (and a little science), it is possible to formulate a cable (which I kinda have done)that has very low inductive properties and very low capacitive effects (loading). 

As for skin effect (depth) it is important that gauge of conductors be finer (for round conductors) flatter and wider for foils and ribbons.  As you stated,  "it makes sense that as capacative reactance is also decreasing, so more charge is being stored" is actually becoming more a function of "catch and release" within the conductor/dielectric interaction.  Better the dielectric properties and geometry, the "quicker the release" of stored energy.  This is actually a problem for alot of designs that use excellent materials but a poor geometric configuration. 

[gerald porzio]

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/interview-with-dr-howard-johnson-about-skin-effect

There are too many of cable myths & epiphanies.

[jneutron]

As audiotart said, the self inductance of the litz drops into the mud..external of course, remains unchanged.

For any round conductor, the internal inductance is 15 nh per foot.  If you split the current through two wires, it drops to 7.5.  Generically, the self (or internal ) inductance will be 15/n...     n=#insulated strands.  So a thousand count litz....essentially zero..

For ribbons, you can use the aspect ratio of the ribbon as a first order approximation.  If the ribbon is 500 mils wide and 3 mils thick, the internal inductance will be about 166 times lower, or 90 picohenries per foot.  (I can't measure accurately below about 250 picohenries).

Where this would come into play is the design of a cable that matches a rough speaker load.  One cable I made had 10 nH per foot, 300 pf per foot, using a tefzel dielectric in a double braid coaxial design..cable z was 5.7 ohms.  Looking at the 10 nH number, it is clear that a single solid wire cannot achieve 5.7 ohm Z, as it's internal inductance exceeds the cable inductance required for the dielectric chosen (2.7 was the DC).  Ribbons and litz and cat5e style cords can do it, as can the double braid I made.

The interplay between two wires with insulation and air involved can become difficult to model analytically as you raise the frequency and the dielectric becomes non linear.  So that's not a clear issue.  For audio cables with litz, the "jumping back and forth" description is probably unneccesary, it's just overall capacitive..

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

There are too many of cable myths & epiphanies.

Agreed.  So what is your point?

Eventually, you will post one of the AH "articles" within which I have been quoted, or one of the ones which Gene asked me to proof.

Then I'll slap ya upside the head with that fact.

If you wish to discuss, please do so.  You are not exactly presenting very well..

Cheers, John

[groovybassist]

audiotart:

Have you looked at River Cable's website?  I think they design for the low inductive and low capacitive properties you espouse.  Just curious.  You can find them at www.rivercable.com.  In the spirit of full disclosure, I use these cables with my Naim gear as they sonically bettered the Naim cables by a fair margin and are designed to similar properties, so they really gel with my gear.

[Aether Audio]

Guys,

Thanks!   It all makes sense.  Most of the info is pretty much in agreement with what I already knew, but it's nice to have a little confirmation.  As I suspected, the dielectric-air-dielectric jumping effect (if it was, in fact, real) would be a pretty complex issue and consequently, difficult to model.  Again, if there is any consequence resulting from it, such would seem to be orders of magnitude lower in significance as compared to other variables.  Therein lies one pseudo-factor that appears tilted heavily towards the "snake-oil" side of the equation.

But... here's a couple of good ones:  First, what about dielectric hysteresis?  We know its real and measurable, albeit seemingly low in level in most cases, but... it seems to me that the issue of cable burn-in would be addressing it (if anything) far more than any other issue.  Obviously this all is highly dependent upon the dielectric material, but in general, what do you think?

Second, is there a relatively simple method for calculating a "net" Dielectric Constant resulting from layering materials with different DCs?  I've been playing around with this by working backwards from the net measured capacitance calculated over a given area, but it seems there should be an easier way than combining every possible combination of materials and thicknesses to see what net capacitance they yield.

Thanks for chiming in and no... I don't necessarily expect an answer on that last one.  I fully expect to do my own research as part of "paying the dues."  But... I'm not known for saying no to "free" information either.   Thanks and...

Take care,
-Bob

[jneutron]

Second, is there a relatively simple method for calculating a "net" Dielectric Constant resulting from layering materials with different DCs?  I've been playing around with this by working backwards from the net measured capacitance calculated over a given area, but it seems there should be an easier way than combining every possible combination of materials and thicknesses to see what net capacitance they yield.

For a flat plate capacitor comprised of several dielectrics, you consider them in series.

Use the equation

C = epsilon r epsilon 0 times area / thickness

For each layer.

Then put the capacitances in series.      C tot = 1/(1/C1 + 1/C2....+1/Cn)

Cheers, John

ps..where's my manners...epsilon 0 is 8.854 *10e-12 farads/meter...be careful of the units here...convert to metric carefully..

[jneutron]

audiotart:

Have you looked at River Cable's website?  I think they design for the low inductive and low capacitive properties you espouse.  Just curious.  You can find them at www.rivercable.com.  In the spirit of full disclosure, I use these cables with my Naim gear as they sonically bettered the Naim cables by a fair margin and are designed to similar properties, so they really gel with my gear.

The 8's good at 10nh/300pf...but I think the velocity number is off.  they say 85%, I think it's really 58.  Think someone's dyslexic..(sp)

The 6 has 200 nh/41 pf, that's 70 ohms, with velocity at 35%..they are waaaaay of..  This is more like zip..

Cheers, John