[DVV]

Let's try to swim in shark-infested waters. I agree 100% that speakers are the main thing (Linn's Vereker nothwithstanding) and my *belief* (I'm trying to give myself a slack here ) is based on the fact that the speaker is the only almost fully mechanical component and therefore has more inbuilt distortion, so to speak (electrostatics in general and Quads in particular being perhaps an exception but with other problems of their own).

Instead of listing arbitrary percentages, I would recommend (especially if you are a newbie) that you spend as much as you can on a very high quality small speaker whose basic sound you like (neutral, warm, cool, whatever). There are several good brands/models out there and the second-hand market is a good place to start. The second step should be an amplifier that complements the speaker sound in every way (tube or ss, power vs speaker sensitivity, complementary type of sound), because I strongly believe the speaker-amplifier combination should be seen as a system. This will allow for a natural upgrade path that builds upon a base system you won't easily outgrow: first upgrade high-quality stands, second a high quality powered subwoofer, then a second subwoofer, and so on. My two cents in this very difficult hobby of ours.

Val

Why small? Why not big?

I mean, if you want bass extension, small is not the way to go. The other usual argument that small speakers are more coherent because of less refraction from "excess" front baffle real estate is most relative, to say the least. While true in principle, in practice, it doesn't work all that much. My guess is that because speaker manufacturers caught the train for small speakers, it's important that it's small, and how it works, weeeeell, that's another story. Not knocking them, just saying what I've been hearing.

On the other hand, I must admit that big and cheap almost by default means smudgy bass with lots of overhang, but boy, it's LOUD!

Ah, the happy days of JBL's 4312 .... When it appeared in the late sixties, and was subsequently adjusted for home as Century 100, it was the speaker of the day, its only real competitor being AR's AR3a. Something like 70-80% of the music mixed anywhere in those days was done by listening to the 4312.

Try finding those babies, they should be really cheap by now, but I would bet they still play better music than most modern, "hi-tech" speakers. That's MOST, not all.

Cheers,
DVV

[Val]

Why small? Why not big? I mean, if you want bass extension, small is not the way to go. The other usual argument that small speakers are more coherent because of less refraction from "excess" front baffle real estate is most relative, to say the least.

I don't know if I made it clear in my post that the best way for a newbie to go into high-end audio was by steps within a logical upgrade path. You cannot expect, therefore, to reap the full benefits on the very first step you take. Regarding narrow baffling against diffraction, I strongly disagree with you and, just to show what is recent, I only have to point to the revolutionary new VMPS RM/X. Bongiorno and Cheney knew what they were doing here.

Almost everything in audio is the result of compromises and can be argued against, but again in the context of a recommendation to a newbie and generalizing about reasonable price and size and a finite budget within an upgrade path, my take on small speakers is more or less as follows (I have written two documents for newbies on exactly this theme that I can send you if you wish).

- High volume in-room bass down to 20Hz is needed for the realistic reproduction of music, and not only because bass is the foundation of music, but also because most of the ambient cues of the soundstage of the recording venue are "hidden" in the low frequencies. A reasonably priced/sized high quality floorstander that goes that low and soundstages and images impeccably is difficult if not impossible to find.

- Since most of the cost of a speaker is in the wood, a smaller high quality speaker is cheaper than a bigger one of the same quality. This is generally true in the better brands' model line and certainly so in a DIY project. For the sake of the discussion, let's define a mini-monitor as a high-quality speaker not taller than 17 inches.

- Mini-monitors are inherently more rigid and have narrower front baffles that respectively cause less cabinet resonance and less diffraction (again). Both help in soundstaging, imaging and the "disappearing act," three factors that good small speakers almost own by themselves.

- It has been recognized for many years that it is much easier to design a great sounding two-way than a great multi-way speaker. LS3/5A, KEF 104, Spendor BC1, Advent, Dynaco A-25, Spica TC-50 come to mind as examples. Please show me the multi-way classics apart from the Dahlquist DQ-10, a floorstander famous for soundstage and imaging but nor for bass.

- A subwoofer (placed at a corner) added to a high-quality mini-monitor (on stands into the room) is a way of almost having your cake and eating it too. You have the best positions for soundstaging and imaging and bass at the same time, something impossible to attain with reasonably priced/sized floorstanding speakers. I would say that the combination will be better than a floorstander costing two or three times more. The times of difficult blending of SWs is long past and there are many examples of the state-of-the-art units out there, both commercial and DIY.

- Small drivers designed for midrange frequencies (say 6-7") cannot give you bass impact and slam; viceversa, big drivers usually get in trouble trying to reproduce anything much above upper bass frequencies. This is another nemesis of reasonably sized/priced floorstanders that the above combination neatly solves. You can now have big 15" or 18" bass drivers giving you all the bass volume, impact and slam you want for realistic music reproduction in the home.

- The combination also allows for a relatively low crossover point (say, between 80Hz and 100Hz) that minimizes Doppler and frequency-modulated distortions.

- Since biamping with a powered SW increases the mini-monitor (satellite) sensitivity by up to 4 times, you can use either less amplifier power at less expense, or purchase a better amplifier at the same price point, or have more volume potential with the same amplifier (provided the speakers can do it). Also, you can tailor and stagger crossover frequencies to a certain extent in order to help correct bumps or valleys on in-room speaker response.

OK, I have my flameproof vest on.

Val

[DVV]

Why small? Why not big? I mean, if you want bass extension, small is not the way to go. The other usual argument that small speakers are more coherent because of less refraction from "excess" front baffle real estate is most relative, to say the least.

I don't know if I made it clear in my post that the best way for a newbie to go into high-end audio was by steps within a logical upgrade path. You cannot expect, therefore, to reap the full benefits on the very first step you take. Regarding narrow baffling against diffraction, I strongly disagree with you and, just to show what is recent, I only have to point to the revolutionary new VMPS RM/X. Bongiorno and Cheney knew what they were doing here.

....

OK, I have my flameproof vest on.

Val

Val, I was referring to something like my own 1041 monitors. What you said above is all true, and I'm not disputing it, but I would ask you you to go to http://www.zero-distortion.com and read the test of B&M Acoustics 1041 monitors.

Best of both worlds.

Cheers,
DVV

[Val]

I checked it and will go back later for more detail. With the caveat that I know nothing about that part of old Europe's loudspeakers, the 1041s seem to be a good compromise with a different tack to your typical British or American manufacturer, but in the end they are still not a full-range system.

[dogberry]

The principle I go by is: "Pay me now, or pay me later."  If you skimp now, you'll end up spending more later.  I'd save all the money I could until I could not wait any longer and then buy the best gear I could afford.  I would buy used to get better gear than my money would otherwise allow.

While you're saving, you can figure out exactly what you're going to be listening to.  If you want movies and music, you'll need to take that into consideration, and it's better to build a good HT system from scratch, than patch it together later.

Look into DIY.  You can save big money building your own speakers and interconnects.

What ever you do: Don't settle!

[DVV]

I checked it and will go back later for more detail. With the caveat that I know nothing about that part of old Europe's loudspeakers, the 1041s seem to be a good compromise with a different tack to your typical British or American manufacturer, but in the end they are still not a full-range system.

No, they are not, in the sense of a single driver. In fact, they are a classic 3 way speaker, drivers by Son Audax, 10" bass out to 800 Hz, 5" midrange out to 3.5 kHz, thereafter titanium dome tweeter. Crossover on three separate boards, three sets of binding posts in the back, go active in part or whole whenevery you feel ready. Silver wiring inside for mid and tweeter. Profiled baffle to minimize refraction. Bass and mis use same material, aerogel (combination of carbon fibre and kevlar), mid has phase plug.

I should know, I wrote the design brief. However, that brief was implemented by a friend of mine, and unfortunately, the company broke up (the partners quarrelled) and does not operate any more. A pity, because for 1,200 euros (app. $1,230) I will bet my life you can't find anything like it, anywhere, by anybody, old and much less new.

But it takes a very classic concept, 2-by-1, and takes it several steps further. In complete opposition to modern "in" standards, like tall and narrow, plus floorstanding - it's not too tall, it's not narrow, and it's not floorstanding. And it's not a 2 way, because the 2 way is best philosophy is utter nonsense (which is not to say one can't make a great 2 ways speaker, just that they appear at the rate of wisdom teeth, and NONE are from England).

In short, it was not built for the market, it was not built to be trendy or "in", it was built along acoustic principles. Which is prossibly why it makes such great music.

Cheers,
DVV

[JohnR]

Well I guess y'all scared nutgrass off pretty good

FWIW, I guess I'm with 'fishin and someone else in saying that 1. speakers are NOT the most important and 2. you can't put percentage figures on these things.

F'rinstance... if you find an amp you like, you can easily swing 4-1 in the price of the speakers (or more) and still be happy with the results. No need to ditch the amp you like just because it doesn't fit in the percent scheme of things. And so FWIW there's my advice: figure out what you like listening to...  

J

[nutgrass]

Hi Guy's
First up Thankyou.
Maybe a little feedback is in order.
My current system consists of the following.
Nad pre and power (which I won't go into, or reasons why)
Speakers - http://www.noteperfect.com.au
I have mikes Alpha's they are a two way bookshelf utilising Dynaudio drivers and some minimalist crossover designs. you guy's might like to have a look.
Integrated Amp - ME 240 with high cap option ~140,000 micro farads worth, passive pre.
Not sure of there url but go by the name of ME Sound can get it for anyone if they want it, drop me a line.
Source - CEC belt driven transport and Cambridge Audio DAC Magic II
The transport was recently damaged in a removal incident and will need to be replace shortly,If any ones got any recommendations I'd appreciate them.
By the wy I'm an Aussie expat in Tanzania reside in sunny Toodyay, near Perth WA (and in no way biased to aussie gear of course)

[/url]

[Vince]

My motto is make sure it is upgradable. Have a pair of Maggie 1.6 on the way (XO is a candidate for upgrading), chose Odyssey Audio Stratos fpr this reason, and use a Foreplay pre!

[NorthMorgan]

Similar to nutgrass I am in the process of upgrading my gear, in fact my first entry to HT.  I have read this thread with great interest as I am looking for new speakers and electronics.  It seems that my choices are limited (in my price range anyway - $5000 total) to brands like Rotel, Parasound, maybe B&K, Adcom, Marantz.  Leading the list right now is Rotel 1066 ($1499) & 1075 ($999) and already half my budget.  Input on this "half" of my purchase would be appreciated.

With the remaining $2500 I have been looking for two main fronts and a center, thinking that I would use my current speakers as the rears for now.  The thought being getting the best main speakers I can, including use in 2-channel music production as well.  With this in mind, I have been looking for a full range, front-port tower, preferably with real wood.  Including Paradigm Reference, Wharfedale Pacific Evolution, Jamo E Series, KEF Q Series, Energy Connoisseur and maybe B&W CM Series.

After all this thought, Val steps in and changes everything.  Confirming/Reiterating a theory that has crossed my mind, namely better (higher quality) monitors (bookshelf) and a subwoofer.  This would suit HT just fine and from what Val is saying, music better as well.  I'm not sure what specific questions I have but rather would appreciate comments on the whole thought process, including suggestions for amp/pre-amp processor and speaker brands.

As an addition, I have been looking at Tyler Acoustics used Taylo Reference Monitor.  Thoughts on this model would help.

Thanks nutgrass for the thread, I hope you don't mind me piggybackin’ rather than starting a new thread.  Keep us posted.

[Tyson]

For a pre/pro, I'm a bit out of the loop, so can't offer advice there.  For amps, I think that the nOrh LeAmps or Odyssey Stratos amps will clearly sound better than the Rotel, B&K, Adcom, ATI, or Outlaw amps.  I also think the LeAmps can be improved greatly by using a vibration control application similar to what Wayne is doing to the Mensa DIO.  

For speakers, I don't think I've heard a better bookshelf speaker than the VMPS 626R's, at any price.  A pair of those and an LCR center speaker with 3 LeAmps and a pre/pro of your choice would give better sound than anything I've heard of comparable price at a retail store.

So, that's $250 per amp, that's $750 for 3 (look for them used, they can be found for around $500 for all 3).  Then the 626R's are around $1500 I think (and can be found for less through a dealer - usually 15% off), and the LCR is I think around $1k (again, go through a dealer and try to get a discount).  Factoring in all discounts and finding the LeAmps used, that brings you to a grand total of about $2600.  That leaves $2400 for a nice pre/pro and a good sub (I like SVS subs for a mainly HT setup w/ less emphasis on music.  But for a "mainly" music system that also double's as an HT, I really like the VMPS subs).  Figure a good sub w/amplification will cost around $1k, that leaves you with $1500 for a nice pre/pro.

[Val]

NorthMorgan, just make sure you can upgrade later without repeating the typical new audiophile mistakes. I have been on this since the early seventies and have my own list.

Although I don't do HT, my suggestions may work even better than with stereo, because the big impact and slam HT fans crave for is something only a pair of good, big subwoofers can give you. Then again there is the extra cost on speakers, that influences people to buy five cheap ones. After a while, when you are more experienced, their failures are so evident that it's back to the drawing (pocket) board again.

Going the used or DIY market is the best way to start when money is an issue. Speakers like the Ellis 1801 or the GR Research Criterion are good examples of what can be done today for less than $1k and that compares favorably with practically anything from the commercial brands at three or more times the price. And you only need four of those, their imaging capability covering for the center channel (unless the room is really big).

In fact, I have to move to a small place and will soon be selling my B&W N804 speakers and Odyssey mono amps, but my next system will be based on GR Criterions.

Subwoofers from Adire or DIY Cable and plate amps like the Hypex HS200 are also at the leading edge of technology and are relatively inexpensive. But here the commercial brands compete somewhat better, especially for HT. VMPS and Hsu come to mind.

I will soon have an audio section on my website exclusively dedicated to helping newbies.

Val

[TheChairGuy]

This is a stimulating discussion and, for me,  it comes around to what's the qualitative starting point, rather than quantitative.

That is, what type of music do I listen to?  If it's audio only or if your repertoire doesn't include a lot of classical, a smaller speaker lacking an octave or two might be recommended.  Those last two octaves are hideously expensive to get just right...and you may not care a whit about them.  Because the cones, domes and ribbons are smaller with less cabinetry and other parts, MOST small speakers will be cheaper.  NutGrass, your Alpha's seem pretty nice, thay may be fine for your needs.

What size room do you have?  What type of listener are you - get your jollies from loud, or does quiet satisfy?  Got a particularly demanding wife in the house, dedicated listening area/room shut off from the rest of the living area, neighbors next door and upstairs/downstairs, small children?  How's your cash flow and what amount of importance do you put on great sound versus (for instance) great eating, great vacations, whatever.

All these questions seem more important, in context as a starting point, than % for each component.

[Val]

Chair, I see your point and I also understand the many limitations of the real world. While I agree with you when the room is really small and/or stubbornly boomy, I still think the lowest reaches are important. Again, not only because of the notes per se, although bass is the foundation of music and I can't see why you may not want them. The truth is that once you experience the whole hog of full frequency range plus the improved soundstage you didn't know your system could throw, due to the previously hidden ambiance cues coming out to reward you for listening to me , you can't go back! Your great mini will now sound small and wimpy. I was a big fan of the old British LS3/5A and the Spica TC-50, but what a difference when you add a good SW! The same thing with the modern Brit clones, Harbeth HLP3 or Spendor S3/5, these are really transformed by a sub.

And good bass is not expensive any more, not when there are so many good and inexpensive subwoofer drivers and DIY box designs out there, or a humble, used REL Strata.

Val

[nathanm]

The truth is that once you experience the whole hog of full frequency range plus the improved soundstage you didn't know your system could throw, due to the previously hidden ambiance cues coming out to reward you for listening to me , you can't go back!

I just experienced this exact same thing last night.  Through some bizarre twist of fate I must have positioned my speakers and sub in a magical location and set the crossover on the sub just right, because I got really nice sound that seemed to fill the whole room.  Exactly what I want.  (but I mantain that only recordings that HAVE such information on them allow this)  But the deep bass is what helped achieve that 'inside the music' feeling, I thought.  Oh, that and sufficient volume.  At one point I imagined I heard a knock on the door.  But I chose to ignore it and it didn't return.  At least I got to enjoy a few tracks of Solitude Aeturnus by being a Bad Neighbor.

I don't really understand how anyone thinks that bass is an "optional" component of the frequency spectrum.  Sure, it can be a pain in the ass to reproduce, but that stuff is on the record and anything less isn't really "high fidelity" now is it?  The problem is that it is so intrusive, and seems to penetrate all matter.  It is second only to Muzak, the most intrusive and hazardous sound in the world.

[TheChairGuy]

Guys, I totally agree on the lowest octave debate (if we can call it that as there is no opposition to it   )...it's just that on a tight budget, getting this right is costly and space innefficent.

Even a good used Sub that does it right is $500.00 US and escalates from there.  Closer to $800.00 US seems about does it - you can buy some real quality source components, a better amp and or preamp for this kind of money - where money is an issue (when isn't it, after all?)

I love reggae and can vouch for the positive effects of bass on da' sole mon, but it's costly relative to other basic components to get it right. Factor in space and living/environment and people factors and it seems creating last two octave bass may be the best thing to leave off a good high quality setup when $ are tight. As you both said, a Sub can be added later if you must have that 'thwack' in da' head.  And I do like that myself sometimes....  

Let's face it, this is all a never ending pursuit of the illusion of real live music (one that I happily pursue with ya' all) and one which we compomise all the time to reach that 'inside the music' feeling.

[Val]

I totally agree, that's why my first message talks about an upgrade path. Buy a high-quality small speaker, then other components, and when you're ready for full frequency response, the subwoofer. You haven't wasted any money.

Val

[Tweak1]

The Illusive Mistress


The more exciting the Mistress, the more demanding. Maddeningly elusive, she is always on the look out for a bigger player. Her preferred method is to tantalize with brief encounters: always leaving her suitor longing for more.

To woo her at all, you must show your devotion with ever more exotic gifts. Momentarily appreciative, your reward- a seductive glance, perhaps a whiff of her intoxicating perfume. Occasionally she will run her fingers slowly through your hair, maybe a soft kiss on the cheek never enough, then pouf, this Temptress is gone. Your question is always the same “Will I ever see her again?” That depends.

You see, there are Mistresses for every player. Choose one you can afford, learn to treat her right, and you will know a level of happiness.  Do not waste your time in pursuit of a Mistress you cannot afford. One outlandish offering will seldom get you very far. Worse you are likely to lose what you already have!

“Who is this Mistress that you speak of that I might know her?” You ask.   Ah, Grasshopper, you have taken the first step, but be careful for she delights in your naiveté. Her name you already know, but you have refused to understand.  I give it to you now, that you might finally come to terms with her, and strike a balance. We, who have walked in your shoes, have come to know her as Synergy.  

Synergy is very Zen, but typically it seems we are destined to find it the hard way, searching the four corners, traversing uncharted waters, beaten, bloody, exhausting ourselves, before we let go, and let Zen. What exactly does the sound of one hand clapping sound like?

In audio, Zen is the understanding that musical systems are the sum total of the interactions between power, vibration, isolation, cabling, components, as well as the room in which they are hopefully, skillfully assembled. The sole purpose being to reproduce music in our homes in order to cleanse or energize our minds and bodies, as well as to enrich our spirit.  It was never about the equipment.

Start with your room. Who among you has done so? Clap your hands. Does your room sound- bright or dull?  This is the first brick in building your musical house. Deny its importance, and you are destined to fall short

Too many so–called hobbyists belong to the “component of the month” Club. They attempt to assemble their systems peace meal- one disparate component at a time- missing the fact that too many chefs spoil the stew. Worse, they expect one component to make the magic. Basically, they are lazy. Seldom do they listen to music. Such behavior leads to the huge number of classified ad cast-offs, that sadly, few bargain hunters actually know what to do with.

Money, audio magazine reviews, and a lack of knowledge, is a more potent cocktail than a Long Island Iced tea! While reviews provide an important service, “we” must put their musings in proper perspective- compared to what?  New is not necessarily better.  If we first learned to extract every last ounce of magic from what we own, we wouldn’t need to be chasing that silver bullet. And if we weren’t so hung up on “new”, the new prices might not be so high!

Contributing to the frustration are impedance, capacitance, and inductance differences inherent in interconnect and component designs. Phase and polarity correction controls should be incorporated into all electronic components. Why?; because the recording industry has no set format.  What purpose does the AES serve if not to mandate the most basic of recording requirements?  We would all benefit from such standards, as well as packaging codes to identify impedance, inductance, and capacitance. I would like to see the magazines lead this charge. Who else... a grass movement? Perhaps Clark Johnson could head up another brigade to Boston Harbor.

Money does not buy happiness!

What purpose does a “Recommended Component” article actually serve?  Let’s use magazine X’s “Recommended Component’ s issue. Under each category you will find a ranking system. But guess what, just because your ship came in, and you can actually afford to buy one of each from say the “Class A” list, in no way does that insure that you will end up with class A sound!   Take a break and get your mind around that.

We used to offer a “free system analysis” on our website. More often than not, it was hard to be tactful. The overwhelming majority of respondents’ did not have hi-performance power conditioning, and were using the supplied power cords (Why can’t manufacturers design their products to be impervious to this?). Neither have most respondents paid any attention to cabling, isolation/vibration control, or room treatments: Most had such a bizarre mix of components that you wonder how they managed to assemble them, let alone derive any musical enjoyment.  A typical note “ What will improve this for $100?”!

Should money be burning a hole in your pocket, take the time learn, then prioritize.  Had the majority of classified sellers done so, they would be thousands of dollars, and hundreds of hours of musical enjoyment ahead. Their systems would cease to be a revolving door in search of. Sadly, they are probably not audiophiles at all, just homebodies addicted to needing something new, or different. Earth to hobbyists - It’s about the MUSIC!

“I was in the right vein, must have been the wrong arm.” Dr John

Whether you have a $1,000 amp, or a $10,000 amp, unless you give it the right juice, the right isolation/vibration control, and couple it to the right speakers and room, you won’t be getting your money’s worth!  In fact a $1,000 amp properly pampered, will sound significantly better than a $10,000 amp with little or no attention paid to the details. Ditto for every component in your system.

This is a hi- performance hobby! You want stock, go mid-fi.  You want one musical system to last, then buy it as a system. You want to experiment? Then get with the program. That means educating yourself.  Like any “hi-performance” hobby, success is in the details, these details require some serious out-of- pocket money. All the more reason to have a plan. Unless you know you are just one component away, you will get far more sonic benefit out of a $5000 investment in power conditioners/ cords, cables, isolation /vibration and room treatments products than you ever will by spending $5 large to “upgrade” one single component.  The classifieds should be loaded with, accessories, cables, and interconnects, not components.

The beauty of this hobby though, is the abundance of both new and used equipment, that will allow you to put together a surprisingly good, highly musical, “simple” system, for under $10Gs. You can’t even buy a good used hi-performance boat, or car, for that little money. Ever check out the cost of their parts and accessories?  And unlike those toys, once you have your system together, your main expenses are music, and beverage of choice.

No matter what synergistic level of the hobby you have attained, should the “upgrade” bug bite you, be mindful that it is unlikely that you can replace one component and expect a significant leap in performance- The whole is greater than the sum of its’ parts.  Most likely it will require wholesale changes- including power conditioning, power cords, interconnects, isolation/vibration control devices AND components!

Over 30 something years, many fine audio reviewers/writers have enlightened me. My musical experience is all the richer for it. Most of them hint at Synergy. I think it’s time to make it the cornerstone of their musings.

Music is a great healer. It can bring you closer to your loved ones, most of whom would embrace your hobby more, if you settled down and made music the priority. Imagine. Your lover at your side, wonderful music flowing through your home. That would be better than a Mistress!