[GregN]

I'm no expert, but I think the problem with the Cathedral panels isn't that they don't have an effect. As I remember it, they've been measured (by Ethan on this board/thread if I recall) and the results show that they do have a real attenuating effect. The problem is the attenuation is across the board. It's not really correcting anything, just lowering volume or absorbing all bass frequencies equally.

If it sounds good to you, and does so utilizing a small form factor that you can live with, maybe this is all that matters. On the other hand, other treatment methods might provide you with even better results.

[Ethan Winer]

I think the problem with the Cathedral panels isn't that they don't have an effect ... the results show that they do have a real attenuating effect.

No, you were right the first time. They have no effect. The tests that show an across-the-board reduction in level were not performed correctly.

--Ethan

[sts9fan]

Yeh, I thought the trashcan summed up his post just fine as are all the posts Ethen Winer does on his competitors products..  I'll trust my ears thank you.

You think he is posting fake data?  The proof is in the pudding and room acoustics are not the voodoo that cables, fuses, quantum music wormhole generators(patent pending) and other such audiophoolery are.  Its science and you can measure it. 

[satfrat]

I'm no expert, but I think the problem with the Cathedral panels isn't that they don't have an effect. As I remember it, they've been measured (by Ethan on this board/thread if I recall) and the results show that they do have a real attenuating effect. The problem is the attenuation is across the board. It's not really correcting anything, just lowering volume or absorbing all bass frequencies equally.

If it sounds good to you, and does so utilizing a small form factor that you can live with, maybe this is all that matters. On the other hand, other treatment methods might provide you with even better results.

As I've said before (and so have you with your opinions Ethan) I wholeheartly disagree that the Catherdral panels aren't a useful acoustic tool Greg. I'm going to take it for granted that Greg has never even tried the Cathedral panels and if that is truely the case, then he's talking about nothing he knows personally of.   If that's the case, then maybe you should try them out before talking about them, hea? I too am no expert but I think the problem with making comments on products that you've never tried personally is you don't know what you're talking about. Of course you can always listen to the experts, experts who are also trying to sell their competing products,,,,,


Cheers,
Robin

[satfrat]

Yeh, I thought the trashcan summed up his post just fine as are all the posts Ethen Winer does on his competitors products..  I'll trust my ears thank you.

You think he is posting fake data?  The proof is in the pudding and room acoustics are not the voodoo that cables, fuses, quantum music wormhole generators(patent pending) and other such audiophoolery are.  Its science and you can measure it. 

I'll stand by my prior statement thank you.

Cheers,
Robin

[sts9fan]

Holy crap I just read the article and those little guys cost more the two GIK 244 bass panels shipped to your door!!!

[sts9fan]

I'm going to take it for granted that Greg has never even tried the Cathedral panels and if that is truely the case, then he's talking about nothing he knows personally of.   If that's the case, then maybe you should try them out before talking about them, hea?

If you see a car with no motor would you know its not going to run without trying it?  If you had glasses with no lenses would you know they would not correct your vision without trying them on?  Its cut and dry physics PLUS we have measurements from an industry professional.  Who was asked by the manufacturer to perfrom the tests!  No need to try them we know.

[satfrat]

Holy crap

That I do understand from reading your posts.

Cheers,
Robin

[GregN]

No, you were right the first time. They have no effect. The tests that show an across-the-board reduction in level were not performed correctly.

--Ethan

Oh, right.. I had forgotten about your subsequent corrective acknowledgment. Thanks for setting me straight.

[GregN]

..... Of course you can always listen to the experts, experts who are also trying to sell their competing products,,,,,


Cheers,
Robin

If he had shown a pattern of trashing each and every competitive product, you might have a point. But clearly that's not the case.

Anyway, I thought my post was rather innocuous. Your reaction to it seemed a little out of proportion, at least. It appears as if I've come in on the tail end of an longstanding argument where the accumulated irritabilities have been built up to a level at which they remain lurking near the surface, easily scratched. So I'll bow out here, while slathering you down with some anti-itching cream. Besides, I doubt I could add anything new that hasn't already been argued before. 

[satfrat]

..... Of course you can always listen to the experts, experts who are also trying to sell their competing products,,,,,


Cheers,
Robin

If he had shown a pattern of trashing each and every competitive product, you might have a point. But clearly that's not the case.

Anyway, I thought my post was rather innocuous. Your reaction to it seemed a little out of proportion, at least. It appears as if I've come in on the tail end of an longstanding argument where the accumulated irritabilities have been built up to a level at which they remain lurking near the surface, easily scratched. So I'll bow out here, while slathering you down with some anti-itching cream. Besides, I doubt I could add anything new that hasn't already been argued before. 

IF you ever have the chance to try this panel out, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. IF like all the others in this thread who want to take shots at something they've never personally tried(regardless of what that product might be), then I consider it nothing more than internet hot air which will rise and disapate away.

At least Ethan Winer has tried this product and I can respect his opinion, even tho I'd rather trust my ears. My problem is him trashing the competition on public forums to benefit himself, he has his own website to do that,,, and he does. 

Cheers,
Robin

[sts9fan]

You tell em!  Physics shmysics.  Again why would I get on an airplane with no wings and see if it will fly?

[satfrat]

You tell em!  Physics shmysics.  Again why would I get on an airplane with no wings and see if it will fly?

 

[brj]

Hey Robin!  Have you compared the Cathedral panels to another acoustic treatment products installed in the corner, or have you only compared them to the untreated corner?

Ethan himself said that he doesn't doubt that you heard a difference, and also never claimed that the waterfall plots presented are the only measurements needed to completely characterize the acoustic performance of a given treatment.  That said, the waterfall plots highlight both frequency response and decay time, two of the most significant acoustic parameters currently known and among the most highly correlated with actual subjective perceptions of acoustic performance.

Your own observations are entirely valid, and if you're happy with the sound of your room, then sit back, relax, and enjoy it in the best of health!  Those observations, however, necessarily mean that there aren't other products available offering a more significant difference (higher performance) for an equal or lesser cost.  I suspect that even a cheap board of 2" or 4" thick rigid fiberglass or mineral wool from Home Depot may offer an enlightening comparison, especially if angled across the corner.


Note: For what its worth, I've never heard either the Cathedral panels or any of Ethan's products.  I have, however, experimented with loose and rigid fiberglass and maybe 2 types of professional acoustic treatments, both listening to the results and then measuring the performance to better understand what I was hearing.  (I just use an inexpensive, but calibrated, microphone connected to a laptop via an external USB pre-amp and driven by RoomEQWizard.)

[mmakshak]

  Satfrat, I put pairs of Cathedral Sound Panels in the upper corners(3) of my listening room, and I liked the effect they had.  I did not compare them to any others, and they were the only treatment being used at the time.  I still wonder how they could eliminate a bass boom a little better than a bass trap if they have no measurable effect.  The only place I didn't think the Sound Panels were worth it was at the bottom of the offending corner.  I have an eleven-inch ASC tube trap that I may try in the offending corner.  My treatment on that side(and speaker positioning) has the sound a little clouded and less alive compared to my other open area.

[nathanm]

You can almost just trust your eyes that those little panels aren't going to do much.  But of course every object in your house will DO something or another to sound, but does it DO what you'd really like it to do in an efficient manner is the question.  I don't think we are going to see miniaturization take over in the area of acoustic control.  I'm all for the magical object which absorbs all light and sound and is the size of a magazine, but I don't think it's going to happen. 

I used to have my walls covered with 8x10" 1/2" thick bits of packing foam that my roommate scored from the trash at work.  Cost nothing, made an audible difference.  Sure it was probably just the uppermost treble, but you could still tell.  Just like everyone knows how your empty house sounded before you moved all your crap in.  If I'm gonna spend 180 bucks on panels they ought to Do Something™ a helluva lot better than any of the numerous soft objects which may be found around any home like rugs, drapes, couches, chairs etc.

[saisunil]

I installed 4 mondo corner traps and two mini (high freq) traps on the first reflection points (side walls) and the effect was immediate and significant. The bass was tight (no echo) and the image was rock solid (no more shifty, blurry and confusing image at high volumes).

Another fellow NY Audio Society member said that the most significant change he ever heard in my room was when I had the traps installed - of course I had also switched to TRL amp ... so go figure.

In any case TRL amp was not going to address my room acoustics problems.

I am sure there are other good room acoustic products out there and I have no desire to change or try anything else because Real Traps:
1. are Expensive
2. are Very heavy
3. are Not easy to install
4. Works
5. As big as they are -- the natural/wheat finish sort of makes them more easily gel into the living room

May be at some point - I'll get around writing a proper review - which would mean - taking the real traps off the wall and them back on and record the differences. For now, they are better on rather than off the wall

I consider myself lucky to have found my room acoustic treatment that works just as I had imagined and cured the problems related to bass boom and imaging. In no way it means that mine is better than yours and even if it were better - how can it improve someone else's room!

On the other hand - one doesn't have to purchase any of these commercial solutions - one could go DIY route and put together something using substantial amount of dense acoustic foam / fiber glass and cover it up with a fabric of choice and some sort of frame / hook to install them in the corners / wall.

Enjoy the music

[MaxCast]

  I'm all for the magical object which absorbs all light and sound and is the size of a magazine, but I don't think it's going to happen. 

I thought that's what the Sonic Rock did. 


I'm in the process of redoing my listening room.  If someone wants to send me a laptop, mic, and bunches of acoustical products, I'll be happy to do a before and  after measurement.  Please be sure the laptop has a nice music library on it ready for a squeezebox.    I don't like hassles.

[Ethan Winer]

My problem is him trashing the competition on public forums to benefit himself

Just to be clear, I try hard not to trash anyone - I merely report the facts as I see them. I even recommend competitor's products when appropriate, and just as often I show people how to DIY their own panels. Even though I'm in the business of selling treatments, I feel so strongly about the importance of acoustics that I continue to maintain my Acoustics FAQ which is devoted entirely to DIY information.

However, I am a straight shooter when it comes to products I don't feel live up to their claims. And this is not just acoustic products, but all audio products. Most of the "snake oil exposés" on my personal site are about things other than acoustic products.

All that said, I agree with brj - if a product seems to work for someone, that's fine with me.

--Ethan

[satfrat]

My problem is him trashing the competition on public forums to benefit himself

Just to be clear, I try hard not to trash anyone - I merely report the facts as I see them. I even recommend competitor's products when appropriate, and just as often I show people how to DIY their own panels. Even though I'm in the business of selling treatments, I feel so strongly about the importance of acoustics that I continue to maintain my Acoustics FAQ which is devoted entirely to DIY information.

However, I am a straight shooter when it comes to products I don't feel live up to their claims. And this is not just acoustic products, but all audio products. Most of the "snake oil exposés" on my personal site are about things other than acoustic products.

All that said, I agree with brj - if a product seems to work for someone, that's fine with me.

--Ethan

Well at least you have tried the Cathedral Panels Ethan,,,,,, not many others in this thread can even say that. The fact that you got nothing from them but I have,,, well that's not the first time that's happened and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Cheers,
Robin