The $2000 challenge

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AliG

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #60 on: 17 Mar 2008, 08:53 pm »
You just wrote it! 30Hz, anechoic, with <5% THD @ 100dB/1M :thumb: :thumb:

Define good quality.

Kevin Haskins

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #61 on: 18 Mar 2008, 02:34 am »
The low-frequency side of that is fairly easy.   I'd wouldn't aim for 30Hz anechoic because you would end up a little hot in-room but go for something like 35-40hz F3, and 1.2-1.5 cubic feet with either PRs or a port and and OEM can get there for less than $100 in the actual cost of the drivers (in volume).    The tradeoff is with sensitivity because reaching that deep in that size enclosure will net you a driver that is about  85-86dB/1W/1M.   

THD numbers would be pretty tough to maintain at that level but its doable.   I pulled those numbers out of my butt anyway so I'm not sure keeping within them is necessary for "great sound quality". 





 


Zero

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #62 on: 18 Mar 2008, 03:06 am »
Given his impressions of the Hawk (a remarkable speaker when done right), I'd suspect the Totem Forest may be his huckleberry. It's way out of his price-range brand new, but used - he'll have some cash left over... along with a big smile on the face.


hotroady

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #63 on: 6 Apr 2008, 07:58 pm »
My years of experience at this tells me that far too many people are searching for deeper bass in their loudspeakers while overlooking the fact that the equipment ahead of the speakers simply is not reproducing the last two octaves down cleanly or transparently.  If you get everything ahead of the speakers really working well, almost always you will hear significantly cleaner and deeper bass than you did before from the same old speakers, assuming they were good ones in the first place and that the listening room is decent.

For example, a great speaker like the HT3 will not play clean musical bass if driven by an inadequate source system.  The Songtower will go deeper and cleaner than you would believe if the electronics give it a chance.



Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine


I just auditioned an U70 amp at Frank's bussiness. I brought my smallish Klispsh RB-25's. I always intended to amp my Klipschs with tubes, I should of done it sooner. The bass was at least an octive lower, it was better bass, that seemed to pump out the sides of the bi-wired speakers. I said to Frank, " I never heard them make that much bass! He remarked, "if bass is made right, it sounds that way" refering to his U70 circuitry. Frank said, "very good little speaker, it was a good idea to bring them over..I get a chance to listen to what's new out there."  Actually the speaker's are about 5 years, old..but I know he meant new to him. Audition amps with your speaker, is the moral of this story.      Andy
« Last Edit: 6 Apr 2008, 08:17 pm by hotroady »

BrianM

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Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #64 on: 6 Apr 2008, 08:45 pm »
I would love to audition the U70 some time.  But Frank's FetValve amp is the best I've heard yet for anything approaching a rational price.  Before I bought one I asked Frank how much he thought I'd need to spend to better it, and he replied, "maybe add another zero to the price."  I thought he was being, you know, biased (well, he was!), but I've actually come to believe it.  Anyway I would confirm that your speakers can have unlocked bass potential.  My old F30s sure did.

funkmonkey

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #65 on: 13 Apr 2008, 09:21 pm »
Just thought I would chime in here, since I am the guy that Jim sent the original e-mail to.  I listened to a lot of speakers in the last few months and about a third of the way through, I gave up on finding what I wanted, for under $2,000.  Once I started listening to speakers that were more in the $4-5,000-ish range I started to hear what I was looking for.  With Jim's explanation I realized that my initial search may have been a little naive.  You guys can argue all you want about the practicality or necessity of what I was looking for, but the bottom line is: that is what I want. 

Thanks to all of you who stopped in over at AVS, and actually took the time to read my thread.  My solution to the $2000 challenge was to forget the initial budget and spend the money to get what I wanted, soundwise.  For me it was a pair of HT3's.  Jim set up an audition for me with a local owner because he thought that the HT3's were what I was looking for, and that hearing them would be a good reference point for me as I continued my search.  At no time did he try and "sell" me the HT3's, but after I had heard them I quickly realized that I would be happy with nothing less than a pair of my own.  I gave him my deposit about a week after I had heard them. :thumb: Now I am anxiously waiting for the their arrival  :drool:  Someone posted in the beginning of this thread about the DIY option, and it is my opinion that DIY would be the only way to get the sound I was looking for for under $2g's, even then that may be a stretch.  The SongTowers came very close, as did the Totem Hawks, but once I had heard the HT3's there really was no contest.  Game Over.  I win, my wallet lost.  :duh:

Thank you also for the continuing support and helpful insights of both Jim Salk, and Dennis Murphy that helped lead me to these fantastic speakers.  You guys are great.  I am proud to join the ranks of Salk Sound speaker owners.

Cheers,
Funk

Kris

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Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #66 on: 13 Apr 2008, 10:04 pm »
You mentioned DIY, but another great way to meet your 2k challenge is buying used. But i agree, if you have the money, diy and used hunting is too much work.

Nuance

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #67 on: 14 Apr 2008, 10:25 pm »
So here's a question:  Given that the Song Tower, in my opinion, does everything "right" excluding bass extension to (or below) 30Hz, how close to the HT3's would they come when paired with capable subwoofer such as a SongSub, an Epik Caslte, an eD A5-350 or a MFW-15?  I know I'd be missing the real top end sparkle and smoothness of the ribbon tweeter, but I figured it was worth an ask. 

Oh, and I finally settled on a pair of Santos Rosewood Song Tower's.  I too have had a speaker thread over at AVS in which I was looking for the "perfect speaker" to my ears (see below).  Well, I did find those speakers, and the Song Tower's they are.   :thumb:  I chose to stick to my budget, however.  And while I do realize there is no perfect speaker in the $2000 or less price range, I am willing to accept the trade off of not having 20Hz bass extension.  After all, the ST's do everything else perfect for a speaker costing less than $2000.

Kudos to Jim and Dennis for engineering such an amazing product!  My $2000 challenge has indeed been met (well, maybe a little higher when factoring in the price of a subwoofer).   :lol:

Here's the link to that thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919069

BrianM

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Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #68 on: 15 Apr 2008, 11:04 am »
So here's a question:  Given that the Song Tower, in my opinion, does everything "right" excluding bass extension to (or below) 30Hz, how close to the HT3's would they come when paired with capable subwoofer such as a SongSub, an Epik Caslte, an eD A5-350 or a MFW-15?  I know I'd be missing the real top end sparkle and smoothness of the ribbon tweeter, but I figured it was worth an ask.

Presumably you've heard the HT3s?  It's fair to say it would depend on your listening room.  Getting a subwoofer well-integrated is usually a challenge.  Obviously Jim wouldn't design a "SongSub" if he didn't think it could work, but he also designed the SongTowers as a good way around needing to use a sub (as are the HT3s).  The advantage of using a subwoofer (or woofers) is the ability to place the bass apart from the mains (imaging vs. bass response); the advantage of using a quarter-wave TL bass, like in the SongTowers, is getting smooth bass response with fewer fussy placement issues (not to mention phase issues).  And it could be that the SongSub is better integrated with sealed (non-ported) SongTowers (I feel like I've read that somewhere??).  Well, I do seem to remember reading that the Veracity QW (another TL design) wasn't ideally suited for subwoofer use, fwiw...

I feel that when your mains extend down to 40Hz or so you're definitely in subwoofer-optional territory.  Especially when you've got an unsealed, ported design (though ports can be plugged of course). And especially especially when the bass is as smooth as the STs' is reported to be.

If it were me, if I wanted more bass I'd save for the HT3s, which would be a bona fide upgrade, instead going through the hassle of mating subwoofer to STs.  I've found that a lot of people go to the trouble of getting that sub, and then they leave it off most of the time because the mains do such a great job (for music listening as opposed to HT that is).  (Or maybe it's because the subwoofer does an imperfect job..) That's assuming the HT3s would work just as well in my listening room -- they produce a lot of bass and have very flat frequency response, so good room treatments are essential.

Sorry for answering for Jim, just had my morning coffee....

Quote
Oh, and I finally settled on a pair of Santos Rosewood Song Tower's.  I too have had a speaker thread over at AVS in which I was looking for the "perfect speaker" to my ears (see below).  Well, I did find those speakers, and the Song Tower's they are.   :thumb:  I chose to stick to my budget, however.  And while I do realize there is no perfect speaker in the $2000 or less price range, I am willing to accept the trade off of not having 20Hz bass extension.  After all, the ST's do everything else perfect for a speaker costing less than $2000.

Nice choice of wood.  :)

martyo

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #69 on: 15 Apr 2008, 01:17 pm »
Quote
Just thought I would chime in here, since I am the guy that Jim sent the original e-mail to.  I listened to a lot of speakers in the last few months and about a third of the way through, I gave up on finding what I wanted, for under $2,000.  Once I started listening to speakers that were more in the $4-5,000-ish range I started to hear what I was looking for.  With Jim's explanation I realized that my initial search may have been a little naive.  You guys can argue all you want about the practicality or necessity of what I was looking for, but the bottom line is: that is what I want. 

Thanks to all of you who stopped in over at AVS, and actually took the time to read my thread.  My solution to the $2000 challenge was to forget the initial budget and spend the money to get what I wanted, soundwise.  For me it was a pair of HT3's.  Jim set up an audition for me with a local owner because he thought that the HT3's were what I was looking for, and that hearing them would be a good reference point for me as I continued my search.  At no time did he try and "sell" me the HT3's, but after I had heard them I quickly realized that I would be happy with nothing less than a pair of my own.  I gave him my deposit about a week after I had heard them. :thumb: Now I am anxiously waiting for the their arrival  :drool:  Someone posted in the beginning of this thread about the DIY option, and it is my opinion that DIY would be the only way to get the sound I was looking for for under $2g's, even then that may be a stretch.  The SongTowers came very close, as did the Totem Hawks, but once I had heard the HT3's there really was no contest.  Game Over.  I win, my wallet lost.  :duh:

Thank you also for the continuing support and helpful insights of both Jim Salk, and Dennis Murphy that helped lead me to these fantastic speakers.  You guys are great.  I am proud to join the ranks of Salk Sound speaker owners.

Cheers,
Funk

With the name of Marty FUNK I felt I should throw in a post:


so now there's more FUNK with them HT3's.   8)

(the HT3's are much clearer and revealing than my photo)

TomS

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #70 on: 15 Apr 2008, 01:33 pm »
Marty,

That is still one of the most beautiful veneer jobs I've ever seen on a speaker (Tineo?).  It's also nice to see someone else still has one of those 250lb+ XBR's sitting around too (yes, I do).  Very nice looking system. 

Congrats to you too Funk!  You'll absolutely love them.

Tom

martyo

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #71 on: 15 Apr 2008, 01:42 pm »
Quote
Marty,

That is still one of the most beautiful veneer jobs I've ever seen on a speaker (Tineo?).  It's also nice to see someone else still has one of those 250lb+ XBR's sitting around too (yes, I do).  Very nice looking system. 

Congrats to you too Funk!  You'll absolutely love them.

Tom

With the new speakers etc. we had to move the TV a couple of feet,  :bawl:  WHEW!!! We'll keep this one until it take's a _____, but in addition to the improved video, will really appreciate getting all that space back with a wall mount.

And yes, that is Tineo, thanks.

DMurphy

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Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #72 on: 15 Apr 2008, 03:29 pm »

"With the name of Marty FUNK I felt I should throw in a post:


so now there's more FUNK with them HT3's."

I know you won't give up the speakers, but could you ship me out the rug?   Really nice.    


martyo

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #73 on: 15 Apr 2008, 03:48 pm »
Quote
I know you won't give up the speakers, but could you ship me out the rug?   Really nice.

My wife flew back from Baton Rouge with it. $50 at an antique (junk) store. They lost her luggage but the rug made it.  :lol:

Nuance

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #74 on: 17 Apr 2008, 11:51 pm »
Presumably you've heard the HT3s?  It's fair to say it would depend on your listening room.  Getting a subwoofer well-integrated is usually a challenge.  Obviously Jim wouldn't design a "SongSub" if he didn't think it could work, but he also designed the SongTowers as a good way around needing to use a sub (as are the HT3s).  The advantage of using a subwoofer (or woofers) is the ability to place the bass apart from the mains (imaging vs. bass response); the advantage of using a quarter-wave TL bass, like in the SongTowers, is getting smooth bass response with fewer fussy placement issues (not to mention phase issues).  And it could be that the SongSub is better integrated with sealed (non-ported) SongTowers (I feel like I've read that somewhere??).  Well, I do seem to remember reading that the Veracity QW (another TL design) wasn't ideally suited for subwoofer use, fwiw...

I feel that when your mains extend down to 40Hz or so you're definitely in subwoofer-optional territory.  Especially when you've got an unsealed, ported design (though ports can be plugged of course). And especially especially when the bass is as smooth as the STs' is reported to be.

No sir, I have not heard the HT3's.  I put out a request for an audition but I never heard back.  I have heard the Song Tower's, though - loved them! 

If it were me, if I wanted more bass I'd save for the HT3s, which would be a bona fide upgrade, instead going through the hassle of mating subwoofer to STs.  I've found that a lot of people go to the trouble of getting that sub, and then they leave it off most of the time because the mains do such a great job (for music listening as opposed to HT that is).  (Or maybe it's because the subwoofer does an imperfect job..) That's assuming the HT3s would work just as well in my listening room -- they produce a lot of bass and have very flat frequency response, so good room treatments are essential.

Well, the HT3's are a bit out of my price range at the moment.  Believe me, I wanted to get an audition and hopefully purchase a pair, but I couldn't.  The ST's will do very nicely, though.  I do, however, still want to mate them with a subwoofer.  I know it won't be easy, but I'll get there. 


Nice choice of wood.  :)

Thank you!  It was actually my wife who picked Rosewood and decided that the Santos was the way to go.  Jim helped me help her...if that makes sense.  :)

satfrat

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Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #75 on: 18 Apr 2008, 01:47 am »




Well, the HT3's are a bit out of my price range at the moment.  Believe me, I wanted to get an audition and hopefully purchase a pair, but I couldn't.  The ST's will do very nicely, though.  I do, however, still want to mate them with a subwoofer.  I know it won't be easy, but I'll get there. 



You are not alone with your desire for a subwoofer. I recently hear a set of HT-3 and I plan on hearing them again real soon. Even tho they didn't lack for bass whatsoever, the guy did have a subwoofer placed in the rear of his room that just filled out the room better imo. What I walked away impressed with wasn't the bass as much has the volume capacity in relation to the dynamics of these loudspeakers. I was also totally blown away with Jim's center channel speaker in relation to the HT-3's. It was by far the most seamless integration of 3 front speakers in a multichannel system that I had ever heard.  :thumb:

Cheers,
Robin

funkmonkey

Re: The $2000 challenge
« Reply #76 on: 18 Apr 2008, 03:22 am »
Marty, so you are the lucky recipient of those Tineo HT3s that I still can't stop looking at.  I agree with those being perhaps the most beautiful speakers I have seen.  Congratulations.