[K.C.]

Right now I listen to my Music Reference RM9 or Quicksilver Silver 60s. As it gets warm in Southern California I'll switch to a Threshold S200 or Counterpoint SA-220. I run them all passive. The front end gear is on a high current ultimate outlet.

I've never used any power conditioning on my power amps and I'd be interested to hear what power conditioners you've had good success with for mid size to large power amps.

Thanks in advance for any info.

[anthony a.]

i beleive the majority plug their high power amps straight into the wall with no conditioning.  most use a dedicated line with a high quality hubbell/oyaide receptacle.  ime, i have always found conditioners to deteriorate amp performance than straight into the wall.  i know a few who use the ultimate high current like you, and others use richard gray.

[Kim S.]

I've used several methods of power conditioning, all of which have improved the sound to a noticable degree.  I have dedicated lines for my analog and digital gear.  I have used the ulimate outlet on my amps like you.  I also have Audioprism quiet lines gizmos which you plug into outlets around the house.  These seem to work for me.  I have used the Chris Venhaus "Hot Box".  This also works.  I made some DIY powers cords using Chris Venhaus recipe for my amps which I use and like.  Currently my main power conditioning for my amps (Monarchy SE-250's which are high power like yours) is done by a APC S15 which I bought after it was recommended by Martin Dewulf in Bound for Sound.  This has caused the most drastic improvement which it should as its much more expensive than the other things.  The character of the improvement for all is the same.  Quieter background, more detail, better channel separation,more defined bass and percusion.  I have not experienced any power limiting problems using any of the above.

[Wayner]

Most quality amps have very well designed power supplies that take out all of the AC hash. I do like the dedicated outlets (I have them) as in Minnesota, we have furnaces that like to send spikes down the line when they turn on. Having seperate dedicated lines to avoid stuff like that is a great idea. Otherwise, I've had some conditioners that actually made more noise than they ever removed.

Wayner 

[Occam]

Most quality amps have very well designed power supplies that take out all of the AC hash.

Stuff and nonsense! And how, pray tell, did you come to that conclusion?

Substitute a Plitron NBT power transformer (albeit very expensive) for whatever toroid is in your is in your power amp and see if you maintain the same faith.
Indeed, ideally every component should have the power conditioning function built into its power supply. Most don't. Yours don't. Even if a manufacturer had the requisite expertise, economics and public purchasing preferences largely preclude it. (C.A.T. and possibly others are the exception)

[BrianM]

Well, then, do most quality amps have well designed power supplies that take out most of the AC hash?  What degree of difference are we talking about?

[Wayner]

At some point, amplifier designs can simply leave the realm of common sense and sensibility and enter the world of Occum. That is the world where lots of dollars reach very little conclusion and manifest in the imagination of over-the-top engineering (or lack of engineering, more emotional fortitude). All of which leaves one to wonder where the boundaries of design vs economics really lose their identity.

BTW, some people think the amplifiers I have are some of the best engineered in the world. I agree.

Wayner 

[TONEPUB]

A dedicated line doesn't remove the crud from your furnace spiking, if all of
the power comes out of the same power distribution box....

Everything you can do will help, but good power conditioning still will take
your system to another level.

So far the only two components I've heard here that weren't affected much
by external power conditioning were the Naim CD555 and the Continuum
turntable, both of which have power supplies that weigh more than most
power amplifiers and are pretty complex if you pop the top.

Everything else has benefitted to some extent.

[Wayner]

Furnace is on one leg of the 120, dedicated on the other. Although I must admit most equipment filters out such noise nowdays. I run my tables on good old 120volt right out of the outlet. Works great.

Wayner

[Tweaker]

I purchased a Brickwall suppressor years ago because of the numerous wind storms we have around here. I wasn't thinking about filtering/conditioning at the time. I just wanted to protect my gear from surges. However, I noticed an improvement in the sound right away plugging my 130 watt power amps into them. I ended up purchasing several more to cover all of my gear (they only have two outlets). I've since replace the Brickwalls, for the sake of consolidation, with a single Furman. The thing I like about the Brickwall and the Furman units is that they don't use MOV's for suppression. 
 Find someone who offers a 30-day money back, like Music Direct or Audio Advisor, and see if they work for you. Brickwall also offers a 30-day or I could sell you one of mine.   (They are designed for high power amps and claim no current limiting). 

[Tweaker]

By the way,I had purchased an Ultimate Outlet shortly after buying my first Brickwall and ended up sending it back as I thought the Brickwall "sounded" better.
I just found a good deal on a Shunyata power conditioner over at Music Direct. It's a demo. Might be worth checking out:
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/81581

[zybar]

I have tried products from PS Audio, Monster, Exact Power, and BPT to just name a few, but my favorite has been the products from Running Springs Audio.  RSA products have been in my system for the last 3+ years and will stay in place until something knocks it out. 

In my current setup, I have a pair of Bella Extreme 100 tube mono blocks and a McAlister PP-150 stereo tube amp plugged into a Haley and I am very happy with the results.  The sound has a much blacker background (I am guessing because of a lower noise floor), improved resolution, and is just more enjoyable.

A general comment on power supplies:

I have had about a dozen pieces of gear (amps, preamps, dacs, transports, dvd players) modified by various people and the one constant in all cases was that  improving the power supply made a major impact on the gear.  If all of these power supplies were so great, why would they ALL improve by being modified or upgraded?  The gear that was modified ran the gamut from costing a few hundred dollars to close to over $7k!!

George

[BrianM]

I have had about a dozen pieces of gear (amps, preamps, dacs, transports, dvd players) modified by various people and the one constant in all cases was that  improving the power supply made a major impact on the gear.  If all of these power supplies were so great, why would they ALL improve by being modified or upgraded?  The gear that was modified ran the gamut from costing a few hundred dollars to close to over $7k!!

To me, this both persuasively speaks to the benefit of improved power supplies and persuasively punctures the justification of charging, you know, $7000 for a piece of gear which (whaddya know) does not feature a properly upgraded power supply.  If it's such a no-brainer type of wholesale improvement, why are so many boutique manufacturers apparently neglecting it and charging a ransom anyway?

[NewBuyer]

To me, this both persuasively speaks to the benefit of improved power supplies and persuasively punctures the justification of charging, you know, $7000 for a piece of gear which (whaddya know) does not feature a properly upgraded power supply.  If it's such a no-brainer type of wholesale improvement, why are so many boutique manufacturers apparently neglecting it and charging a ransom anyway?

Exactly. If aftermarket mods are really making such a big-deal difference, then why don't the manufacturers just make their products properly in the first place. Would it really cause such a price increase, that they would be hanging themselves in their own markets?

[zybar]

To me, this both persuasively speaks to the benefit of improved power supplies and persuasively punctures the justification of charging, you know, $7000 for a piece of gear which (whaddya know) does not feature a properly upgraded power supply.  If it's such a no-brainer type of wholesale improvement, why are so many boutique manufacturers apparently neglecting it and charging a ransom anyway?

Exactly. If aftermarket mods are really making such a big-deal difference, then why don't the manufacturers just make their products properly in the first place. Would it really cause such a price increase, that they would be hanging themselves in their own markets?

First off, manufacturers have to build products to a price point. 

Almost all gear can be improved upon by carefully upgrading or changing parts.  I want to stress "carefully"...just putting in boutique or more expensive parts doesn't guarantee an improvement.

Secondly, yes, it could cause a big price increase.  This price increase might push the product out of its sweet spot and impact sales in a negative fashion.

George

[NewBuyer]

...Secondly, yes, it could cause a big price increase.  This price increase might push the product out of its sweet spot and impact sales in a negative fashion.

George

Why would it necessarily require such a big price increase? And a perhaps naive question: Wouldn't people be even more willing to buy the product (thus justifying a slightly higher price point), if it really did sound so much better, with a proper audio-performance design? Although it is all relative, I suppose...

[zybar]

...Secondly, yes, it could cause a big price increase.  This price increase might push the product out of its sweet spot and impact sales in a negative fashion.

George

Why would it necessarily require such a big price increase? And a perhaps naive question: Wouldn't people be even more willing to buy the product (thus justifying a slightly higher price point), if it really did sound so much better, with a proper audio-performance design? Although it is all relative, I suppose...

I don't have the time or energy to go into how costs of the material costs of a product translate into a final price to the consumer...let me simply state the obvious that it isn't a 1:1 equation...maybe somebody else wants to explain that?

As for your second point, that's why many vendors have SE or hot rod versions.  It isn't all marketing hype.

George

[NewBuyer]

I don't have the time or energy to go into how costs of the product translate into a final price to the consumer...let me simply say that it is a 1:1 equation.  maybe somebody else wants to explain.

As for your second point, that's why many vendors have SE or hot rod versions.  It isn't all marketing hype.

George

George, do you think that I am disputing your findings, that aftermarket power supply work has improved your equipment? I'm not affirming or denying that at all. You could also explain manufacturing cost margins to me if you want to, but I'm sure we all here already get that.

And unfortunately some SE/hot-rod version stuff is actually market hype, and some isn't.

What I am saying, is that if some high-end manufacturers are screwing the consumer by putting inferior power supplies in their expensive-grade equipment - so much that aftermarket upgrades cause the "major" super-spectacular audio improvements that some folks talk about - then those guilty high-end manufacturers should probably be boycotted. After all, to have custom aftermarket work done, the cost of parts is often not that large -  often especially compared with the labor costs. So I'm betting that the original manufacturers could leverage their existing economies of scale to make the better power supplies already available in their equipment, for a relatively small price-point increase to the consumer.

I for one, would be interested to know what the $7000 piece of equipment was, that you mention was so hugely upgraded from a decent power supply rework - but only if you are comfortable sharing this.

[arthurs]

I'll stay out of the rest of this but will concur with George on the Running Springs....top shelf stuff that delivers high value for your dollars.

[Imperial]

Yes, getting that dedicated line is more like you can address the issues of grounding more properly, or you should use a dedicated line to implement this more like it we can say... (Breaker size is another matter that maybe somebody else can talk about..?)
Setting up a ac/grounding circuit topology (a systemwide ac/ground - harness...) for a hifi system is what could be viewed as a very good investment on any account!
You get noise shunted correctly. The voltage potentials reside where they should be and much more.
When one starts to mix and match components from different manufacturers this becomes more and more beneficial I think.
It's all about design philosophy.
Some designs do not benefit from a ac cleaner at all! Some designs where the voicing is by supplied powercord (Shindo) or where
the say the AC cord and/or interconnects are "sort of part of the voicing" of the circuit (in some way or another) (Lavardin , Krell Cast, Combak, and others..) a more direct wall socket might work better, maybe, lets just say that..

Then there is the powersupply and its circuits to consider.
You got slow start, types of sentinel (supervisor systems..) circuits and ways of feeding the various part of the amp to consider.
Some amps have vastly faster rectifiers than others say amps from Electrocompaniet, these amps also has some special grounding types to consider (Meaning that some ac cords/ ac-conditioners might not work at all, others will be superb)

I think getting a clear picture of the ac layout is smart.
You can draw a schematic of all components ac connection as seen by the wall sockets...
A good electrician will be able to tell you how you then should proceed.. (This is specific to each country, and should be dealt with locally)
There are examples from the audio press where a reviewer tests a ac conditioning/cleaner product and finds that is does not work..
Well what the reviewer did not take into consideration was that this product was not made for that type of ac grid, hence was from another contry.. I've read some of these reviews, or posts online from people who do not understand why the product did not perform as expected..  it's just the same thing really.. and the thing is "lack of proper homework!!!" 
When you did your homework, you really get your moneys worth big time!!! And can choose correctly in the jungle that is the aftermarket for AC and stuff..
Don't just throw money at a problem... throw money after people who can fix your problem!!! 

When the time comes to actually plug in all these components and their then eh.. ac cords or ground wires even..
There is usually only so many ways to do this, and there is most likely also a right order of connection and a wrong order of connection.

So just pluggin stuff wildly together even if you got all the boxes does not make it better!!
Reading the manuals (Eh, or the alternative: paying somebody who read the manual, wrote it ... you know what I mean), getting the clear picture, makes for a VERY HAPPY MUSICLOVER. 

I'll mention this:
Why ac conditioner?

The answer is very simple: You want your system to amplify music, not noise, because the less complex signal the circuits see, the better the speakers will play that music..

More noise = less music...
And less noise = cheaper to achieve better sound!!!

Imperial