[nodiak]

Hi earwig,
I listen to electronic music alot and watch sci fi movies sometimes. Quite a bit of sub 20 hz information. I tried to use 2 and 3 ways with 8-15" bass speakers because I wanted to keep it simple. None of them played as low and clean as a dedicated sub made to play sub 20 hz.
The bonus is it cleans up the midrange AND gives that atmospheric "hall effect" to recordings, including for ex. Larry Coryell playing acoustic guitar into a mic.
I try not to get too deep into someone elses decision but you are asking for what I wanted, so I'm giving my experience with how I solved my situation.
What kept me away from a sub before was I thought it was complicated to set up and adjust. It isn't so difficult it just took me to learn to "think sub". I use mine now cutoff ~ 70 hz and it blends perfectly to my main speakers.
My room is 12' wide by 26.5' long. I get away with one sub against a wall just behind the right speaker (which is 6' out from the front wall). I plan on getting another sub this year.
If you decide to get one or two subs there are several people here who can help you with set up. It just takes a little time and effort adjusting controls and moving it around to get it right. Mine is powered and is great for me as it has everything onboard and the sound is tight, deep and high quality. It was easy to set up innitially, but i also learned to adjust it's placement and controls even better over the months that I've had it. Seperate amps and crossovers could of course work well, just depends on how involved you want to get. I do have room treatment including large corner bass traps that help keep the bass response smoother than without.
As to SP Tech speakers I know nothing about them except I have always wanted to hear them, but I could never afford them anyway. I completely believe thay play to below 30 hz, why not? I think the knowledge and skill put into them is as high as I've heard of. They may satisfy you too. I bet they sound beautiful.
Don  

[miklorsmith]

Downgrading speakers on the basis of bigger woofers is not a good trajectory.  Displacement is important but so are box design, crossover design, crossover components, and those pesky other drivers.  There's a LOT more to speaker design than the specification sheet.

The chances you'd be happy with "buying based on more bass drivers" as a primary criteria are exceptionally small.  Please abandon this line of thought.

[doug s.]

agreed that downgrading mains is a bad idea.  if you like the totems, yust get a subwoofer system, to relieve the totem's need to play anything below 60-70hz...

doug s.

[sbrtoy]

In a 13x13 room your chances of getting high quality bass from the lowest octave will be somewhat low given the room interaction. A sub will be much easier to work with than a fullrange speaker as you can EQ and adjust for room nodes if you choose a flexible enough solution. 

Your typical sub with only level and XO frequency adjustment is likely to give you more bass, but not necessarily good bass...

[Zero]

I'm going to stick out my neck here and offer a highly objective opinion;

*In my experiences*, I've yet to stumble across a compact floor-stander in this price range that is equally as versatile and as capable of strong/un distorted output as the Forest. If you value all the elements a good high end speaker can deliver and are limited to the budget these speakers occupy - you're going to be opening yourself to a very frustrating search. This isn't to discredit anything I've heard before, and more importantly - haven't heard (such as the SP Timepiece Mini).

If you're concerned about wear and tear - don't. The driver in your Forest was designed for survivability in harsh and abusive conditions. Unless you over/under power the speaker, you'll be fine. I'd put that concern to ease and as the others suggest> start looking for a good sub. There are plenty out there - the Storm is intensely musical and will provide a good amount of thump in your room. The Thunder was designed more for theater applications, but it could give you the ballsy bass electronica posses. The bottom line? If you like the speaker, keep em'.  Focus on buying a good sub (or two)...   

[satfrat]

I'm not sure what you have for a system but you might want to try some sort of power conditioning. It might not only take care of your "buzzing" but you'd be surprised how it'll also clean up your bass. You might be surprised what a good 2 way loudspeaker can sound like once you lower the ground noise.

Ohh,, btw Dean, my Lorelei's have a real deep 30hz for being a simple 2-way with a 7" Scan Speak. Ask anyone who owns them, a sub isn't needed with this set of 2-ways. 

But all that aside, the addition of a sub will only help take the load off them 2-ways which will only help them sound sweeter in the midrange,,, that's actually what I'm doing with my Lorelei's. 

Cheers, Robin

[earwig]

 The t.forrests go to 33hz.A single 170mm  dia cone,designed by dynaudio(so I was told).Probably a 17w-75 ext cloned exclusivly for totem into a  modified swan (maby its a D6.8 ext?)a chinese specially made high quality version.Going to have to replace one driver for the buzz might be a vc.I use a monster ht1100 power filter its not one of the better costly audiophile ones but Ive heard improvements over straight out of the wall with it.

[satfrat]

T.Forest 170mm ,designed by Dynaudio(so I was told).Probably a 17w-75 ext cloned exclusivly for Totem into a chinese Swan (D6.8 ext?) specially made version of high quality.Going to have to replace one driver for the buzz may be vc.My TFs goes to 33hz.Lorelei looks simular to mine. Ive only heard the Opera and Sonus Faber Italian ones, they are sweet sounding.I use a Monster ht1100 power filter.

I would recommend replacing the Monster surge strip with a higher grade audio conditioner. I tried to find some writeup on this monster strip and this was 1st of the first things that came up: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/review-audio-magic-stealth-power-conditioner-23108/ I'm thinking that even tho the Monster surge conditioner might be adequate for a HT system, there's better conditioners that will deal with audio ground noise  where a surge protector does not. Just a thought that might be worth the time to compare audio grade conditioners if the opportunity arises.

Cheers,
Robin

[earwig]

Also I would like to refer to this interesting article related not only to my speakers but the limitations that 2 way single woofer driver speakers has in general.hmmmm.  http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/Loudspeakers/reviews/forest.htm     

[doug s.]

Oh ! so you guys must really like the Forests. So many of you must have heard them I guess.I have to admit Ive heard only a few other speakers as transparant,clear and detail as these.Yeah your right, Ill just go listen to the Storm sub at the shop. Should give me more of 100 watts power to my satillites displacing 100hz and below towards the 300 watt sub.Thank You everyone!       

while the storm might be worth a listen, to get an idea of what a sub can do; i would strongly recommend against buying one, even new.  yust buy a pair of yamaha subs, and an outboard x-over.  you will have better overall performance, & money in your pocket.  for even better performance, if you're thinking of spending the money on a rel storm, get a pair of vmps sub, a pro-audio power amp, & an outboard x-over...

doug s.

[mcullinan]

If your listening to electronica you definitely need a sub. Electronica is bass dependent and you dont want to shave any off. Why not a pair of monitors plus a sub.
Mike

[doug s.]

I think now maby I thinking of 3 way speakers again?

with exceptions like the salk ht3, which use a subwoofer-type driver for the bass, almost every three-way speaker out there will still benefit from being actively crossed over to good subs.  and, considering that getting good bass in a small room is difficult, you would be better off w/separate subs that do not have to be confined to the same location as the main speakers, where it's dumb luck if that happens to be the best location for smooth bass response in your room.

ymmv,

doug s.

[sbrtoy]

Agree with Doug 100%...a large 3 way is still going to have limited bass compared to a good sub, and in your smaller room placement and integration will be major issues.  Don't underestimate the importance of room acoustics, room nodes can easily suck out or boost bass to levels that make your system sound like a cheap car stereo...one note bass. 

A cheap way to go "3-way" would be to get a Marchand crossover and a decent budget sub and get the lowest octaves away from your Totems.  Someone has a Marchand on Audiogon...an no I am not associated with the seller in any way...This will also open up their midrange as you won't get the distortion from cone flex caused by large excursions on deep bass. 

Totem makes nice speakers, I would recommend following the advise given here and not selling them for three ways...but as always YMMV

[earwig]

Seems like to me a mid-bass cone on a single woofered two way is unable to produce full range without compromise.If the frequency is upped to enhance the mids you'd have to roll the lowest frequencies off as in some small single woofered 2 ways.To deepen and enhance the lowest frequency youll experiance mids recessing somewhat reducing bloom.Can a single bass coned 2 way do what a 3 way does more easily? It would be very difficult indeed to do.But I can see why its done ,to save on costs of building a good speaker and can do it cheaply very well indeed but single woofer 2 way phisics still limits the ultimate quality in full range.As for subwoofers ,Ive heard a few in the past but,the sound of them seem to me not to improve music much but if you love home theater they have excellant vibratory subsonic thrill effects. I might still keep subs in mind enough to check the small mahogany tottum storm sub out .

[satfrat]

window curtainsAs for subwoofers,they dont seem to me good for music much but if you love home theater they are excellant and definitly recommended any ht systems.

IF? you've never owned one, how can you make this statement?  Personally, I totally disagree with you. You simply need a fast reacting subwoofer that's musical in nature. There's lots to chose from including that Yamaha sub with it's 8" driver that Doug suggested. I really like my 10" ACI Force XL for both music and HT.

Cheers,
Robin

[Double Ugly]

Seems like to me a mid-bass cone on a two way is unable to produce full range without compromise.If the frequency is upped to enhance the mids you'd have to roll the lowest frequencies off as in some british 2 ways.To deepen and enhance the lowest frequency youll experiance mids recessing somewhat reducing bloom.Can a 2 way do what a 3 way does more easily?It would be very difficult indeed to do.But I can see why its done ,to save on costs of building a good speaker and its done very well indeed but 2 way phisics still limits the ultimate quality in full range.As for subwoofers,they dont seem to me good for music much but if you love home theater they are excellant and definitly recommended all ht systems have them.Ill still check out the totem storm sub ,they look like the mahogany finish would match nicely anyways.

Virtually every respondent to this thread has offered advice contrary to the above. 

First you said you'd investigate SP Technology, but I can't imagine anyone could do so and come away with your opinion of what's possible with a 2-way.  Plenty have offered solid, quantifiable reasons a sub is your best answer - especially considering your self-imposed fiscal LIMFAC - and yet you continue to discount them for reasons I can only assume are hearsay.

It seems to me someone has your ear, and they've convinced you a 3-way is the only means to achieving your goal.  That, or you've simply decided it's what you want and you're refuting contrary sentiments to suit your agenda. 

Regardless, if you're hellbent on getting a 3-way, get it and stop inviting suggestions you have no intention of considering. 

[doug s.]

window curtainsAs for subwoofers,they dont seem to me good for music much but if you love home theater they are excellant and definitly recommended any ht systems.

IF? you've never owned one, how can you make this statement?  Personally, I totally disagree with you. You simply need a fast reacting subwoofer that's musical in nature. There's lots to chose from including that Yamaha sub with it's 8" driver that Doug suggested. I really like my 10" ACI Force XL for both music and HT.

Cheers,
Robin

fyi, the subs i recommended - the yamaha yst-sw305's - have two 8" servo-controlled drivers, not one...

fwiw,

doug s.

[doug s.]

Can you recommend a good 3 way speaker for electronica music?  I never expected to be drawn into a subwoofer debate to lose focus on what was what the original question states.  My intention was for 3 ways for electronica, not subwoofers, although it was on the backburner of my mind and people seem to cast lingering doubts on my decision that caused my inviting misdirection, sorry!  I still was reconsidering those opinions enough to take a second look at subs anyways but it wasn't really what I asked for originally. So there was very little info on 3 ways below the 3 g mark I asked for.  So I best end this thread now that it failed to address my original request.

here's three recommendations:
salk ht3
thiel 3.5
thiel 3.6

these are all excellent 3-way speakers; the thiels are freaking bargains at their typical used prices.

but, regardless of what you do, there is no way any stand-alone 3-way will outperform a comparable 2-way w/subs in a 13x13 room.  unless, of course, you actively cross that 3-way over to subs...   

doug s.

[mcullinan]

I agree with Double Ugly. I think if you find a 3-way you like it still wont go low enough for electronica. I also listen to techno and elecrtonica and even with a 3-way youll still miss part, an important part of the music you are talking about. Its not that people arent listening to your request, I think they know you will still be missing some musical info as you are now presently and wont obtain it by going 3-way.
Mike

[sbrtoy]

Forget the sub idea, just shoehorn some Wilson MAXX or Alexandrias in and feed with 500+ wpc....guaranteed to give you the thump you are looking for.