[Double Ugly]

Personally I'm hoping for that "Devine origin" thing.  

Approximately 2 weeks and counting till the Timepieces arrive...      

DU

[Aether Audio]

OK - you guys got my attention.

Glad to see we haven’t fallen into obscurity.  I’d be tempted to launch off into some marketing hype in order to drum up some business right now but thanks to some of you folks, I don’t have to.  Controversy seems to be the best salesman.  I’m just glad I didn’t have to dye my hair green and parade around in a wedding dress!

I can’t resist temptation though, so here’s some marketing for everyone to ponder.  I highly recommend that owners/advocates of SET amps and other low powered units NOT PURCHASE our speakers.  In fact, we will not extend our “NO RISK” guarantee to you if you do.  I only mention this because I’ve had quite a number of inquiries regarding such and I really don’t have time to keep up with them, especially seeing that it shouldn’t be necessary in light of the lower sensitivity rating of our products.  Also, I don’t recommend our products to individuals that only have mid-fi receivers and the like.  Either our products are so poor that you have to mate them with quality electronics to get a reasonable sound quality out of them or they’re so revealing that the shortcomings of low quality components are blatantly revealed.  Either way, that’s for the market to decide.  Maybe ya’all could help pass the word.  It would help me find time for more important things.

Now - does that sound like marketing hype?  If that was what we were about I should be telling everyone, no matter their equipment, to purchase our product.  Or better yet, just remain silent on the issue.  To be frank, I’m not savvy enough to push something that doesn’t basically sell itself nor stupid enough to try. As Jerry said, the No Risk deal would be a fast path to bankruptcy.  At over 70lbs. shipping weight each, it cost $98 bucks and some change just to ship the review pair down to Bill Roberts in Florida, what with insurance and all.  And that was only one-way.  I must be awful stupid to offer such a deal if I wasn't convinced we had a winner.

And as far as ehider has stated, he is correct; our theory page is not nor was it intended to be a tutorial on loudspeaker design.  Volumes would be required and there are plenty already out there for your reading pleasure.  Instead, it was intended to inform those already familiar with design with regards to the – dare I say – “logic” behind our somewhat unique approach.  

My good friend Bill Roberts has shared a rather eloquent quote: “Insanity is the act of repeatedly doing something the same way and expecting different results.”  Our speakers look different because they are different and therefore have produced different results.  Whether or not that is a good thing is for you all to decide.  Telling everybody about why they are different on our THEORY page is not so much a marketing ploy as an opportunity to avoid repeating myself endlessly with each inquiry.  That along with the increased likelihood of being thorough and giving our favorite customers (the scrutinizing type) a chance to refer back to it at their convenience.

As a side note: I would ask ehider or anyone this question.  Why in the world would I want to educate my competition in loudspeaker design on my website?  Contrary to the idol worship that some seem to assign to the art, loudspeaker design is not exactly rocket science or require a PHD in Quantum Mechanics to effectively engage in.  You have no idea how many years have passed wherein I would regularly peruse all the audiophile magazines, fearfully looking for my design concepts already being marketed by another company.  To my thinking, the principles employed in our products should have been obvious to any serious engineer long ago.  Thankfully for us at SP Technology, few engineers out there seem to understand the basic concepts of Natural Law or how to apply them – form simply follows function.

The “No Risk” deal, on the other hand, IS a marketing tactic.  Duh.  I may not be that smart financially but I can’t think of a better way to get everyone’s attention.  ‘scuse me, but I think it’s working.  Yes, we’re taking a gamble.  I’m BETTING that there are honest folks out there that will give our products an honest try and in the end they won’t return them.  You, on the other hand, can BET that when the word finally gets out, that the “No Risk” deal will eventually go away AND the present pricing structure of our products will change.  That’s a promise.  I’ve found that a little faith is often rewarded many times over.  As the recent C-1 Bankcard advertisement goes, “So what’s in your wallet?”  

The point is, our products are under priced and that was a marketing tactic too.  Don't worry, we're not going to gouge anybody later on, that would fly in the face of everything we stand for.  Never-the-less, we will have to have a price increase at some point as we switch over to dealer representation.  The dealer has to get his cut in order to make our products more convenient for everyone to audition.  That's business.

Finally, we’re glad to see that others are investigating some of the other ideals and concepts that we are committed to share.  Believe it or not, there are other things more important than audio.  I know – BLASPHEMY!!!  Sorry, but the unfortunate fact is that there are very few things that will last forever.  While there may be a number of audiophiles that do, I’m certain that no matter how good - their audio systems won’t.  In the end, we at SP Technology are more concerned with people than products or money.  Yeah I know, just another marketing ploy…as far as the cynical soul is concerned.  We really do hope though, that everyone discovers their Transfinite potential before they experience their finite end.

May the “Logos” be with you all,
 - Bob

[audiojerry]

Instead of condemning ehider to execution by means of drawing and quartering, I'd rather invite him to continue expressing his views. I believe he has a rich background in audio and can be a source of valuable information and advice. We all have our personal biases and take strong positions on some of them. Respectfully disagree? Sure - that's what makes for enjoyable debate. After exchanging emails with him, I don't believe his intent was to criticize SP Tech or discourage potential auditions.

Back when a lot of us frequented Harmonic Discord, ehider made a lot of positive contributions. He gave me permission to post this link on a new speaker design on HD, where he provided some excellent thoughts.
http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9499&highlight=ehider

I'd like to see more posts from members who have a lot to offer and the ability to do so intelligently and respectfully.  

On that note, Eric, what advice would you offer to someone considering SP Tech speakers?  

[ehider]

Thanks for the kudos AudioJerry!

As far as I am concerned, SP has made it a "no brainer" for audiophiles to try their speakers since they offer a money back guarantee. Obviously this speaker is not an absolute full range mega multi-driver speaker, so those who have the money to afford something that can produce huge SPL's and serious subterranean bass may be happier with a VMPS RM-40 or GR Research Alpha for instance. Then again, perhaps SP's monitor will work well with an ancillary sub or two? IMHO it's all too early to understand what this new speaker is capable of providing an audiophile until we hear more "real world" experiences from others who try them out. As I've said in my other posts, I seriously hoping this monitor is all its cracked up to be!

[Aether Audio]

Hey Everybody,

Just dropped in for a minute.  I want you all to know I really do appreciate your comments and continued interest  I sure hope I didn't come across in my last post as a jerk.  I only wanted everyone to know that we're not into the marketing hype thing.  I do plan on placing some ads in the near future but a company almost has to if they hope to reach people that aren't the diehard enthusiasts with internet access like you guys are.

Anyway, I just wanted to let everyone know they should hold up planning on using any subwoofers with our speakers until ya hear them without first.  Eric is right - in that we don't have a bunch of drivers in our designs.  Heck, they're only 8 inch woofers to boot.  But...you really got to hear that sucker pump out the low end before you'll believe it.  Even though I saw it on the analyzer in the lab I wasn't prepared for that "air moving in the room" effect until I heard it for myself.

I'm not trying to shamelessly plug our products here.  I just wanted to save some folks the grief of preparing all the gear and the expectation of making room in their budget for a sub.  You might still want to but if you're going to bother at all, you should find one that will crank serious SPL at 20Hz minimum - more like hit 15Hz.  Otherwise I personally don't think it would be worth the trouble and cost.

We have plans to market and have already done the basic research on such a beast but... we have to get the production machine churning out our present products efficiently first.  I did the design over ten years ago, before I even started the Timepiece.  It's a - I'll bet you could guess - hybrid horn/t-line design.   To be honest, I'm not sure I'll even use the thing in my own setup at home because I have an older house with plaster walls.  I'm afraid it could do serious damage as I'm sure some of the natural resonant frequencies of the building structures are bound to be in that range.  OK...maybe I'll try it...just once.  

Catch ya later,
 - Bob

[Cens]

Bob,

Just a heads up that your site does not work on the Safari browser.  You get an error when trying to enter from the main portal.  Works fine on internet explorer.  (Note: I use a Mac.)

Regards,

Chris

Edited for update:

Hmm?  I take the above back to some extent.  It had troubles loading fully on Internet Explorer (none of the pictures would load) but when I copied an inner link from Explorer over to Safari, Safari had no problem with the site once inside.  Curious.

[Audio Architect]

Thanks for the kudos AudioJerry!

As far as I am concerned, SP has made it a "no brainer" for audiophiles to try their speakers since they offer a money back guarantee. Obviously this speaker is not an absolute full range mega multi-driver speaker, so those who have the money to afford something that can produce huge SPL's and serious subterranean bass may be happier with a VMPS RM-40 or GR Research Alpha for instance. Then again, perhaps SP's monitor will work well with an ancillary sub or two? IMHO it's ...

In my opinion almost every speaker will benefit from one or better yet two subs. I have not heard the Alpha but I have auditioned th RM40 and as good as they are they are much better with a sub. As I am sure you are aware it is difficult for any speaker positioned for optimum imaging to produce base comparible to a good sub.

[infiniti driver]

I know where Bob is coming from with the subs.

The timepiece 2.0's have very deep, rich bass, when the programme has it...otherwise, you hear what comes through accurately. Adding one or two subs would be difficult as the crossover would need to be around 32 or lower and then the phase would get offended from not having point source air motion...it would be like a whale in a washtub to the air motion at that point. Cutting the SP's off at 60hZ would do not real good either since the enclosure is designed to be phase accurate with full frequency response and the high pass filter would do more harm than good within the transmission area of the enclousre release.

A pair of subs or single sub crossed over at 22 to 25hZ would also muddy up the 40hZ range of the SP's because even 18/db/oct, 3rd order would  cause ringing in the subs and throw phase off then again.

Nope, I cannot recommend any subs at all with them. If 30 is good enough for you (mind you they are only down 19dB at 10hZ) then as is would be the way to go.

(edit for spelling and insert)

IF you can find a set of subs that have virtually "no output" above 32hZ, this would be the key. So far, who makes them?

Certain rooms can roll the bottom off below 40hZ and others boost heavy at 27hZ from experience. look at all my postings in this topic before setting them up and read the binder.


Useable response to me is +/-3dB if you look at the review once again.

They do well down there...it is a surpirise that I did not expect.

[doug s.]

...I just wanted to save some folks the grief of preparing all the gear and the expectation of making room in their budget for a sub. You might still want to but if you're going to bother at all, you should find one that will crank serious SPL at 20Hz minimum - more like hit 15Hz. Otherwise I personally don't think it would be worth the trouble and cost.

We have plans to market and have already done the basic research on such a beast but... we have to get the production machine churning out our present products efficiently first. I did the design over ten years ago, before I even started the Timepiece. It's a - I'll bet you could guess - hybrid horn/t-line design. scratching_head.gif To be honest, I'm not sure I'll even use the thing in my own setup at home because I have an older house with plaster walls. I'm afraid it could do serious damage as I'm sure some of the natural resonant frequencies of the building structures are bound to be in that range. OK...maybe I'll try it...just once. icon_rolleyes.gif

as i am also a believer that *real* subs will help most any system - even full-range speakers like rm-40's - i wonder if ya tink a pair of fully optioned vmps larger subs will meet yer criteria of being a worthwhile addition to yer sp monitors...  tho, yer future offering *does* sound intriguing...    

and, re: amps, i presently run a mesa baron, which can be set for 60wpc in full triode, 150wpc in full pentode or 90wpc or 120wpc in 1/3 pentode-2/3 triode, or 1/3 triode-2/3 pentode.  negative feedback adjustable from 0db-8db.  i'm tinking, that w/my subs, i could drive yer speaker  w/the baron full-triode, no sweat, in my 26x38x8.5 room - especially w/yer m-t-m model.  i am presently running 2/3 triode,  0db negative feedback w/a pair of tiny 86db-efficient proac reference 8 signatures, & i get plenty of gain...

thanks,

doug s., still dreaming of being able to afford $4k speakers...

[Audio Architect]

I know where Bob is coming from with the subs.

The timepiece 2.0's have very deep, rich bass, when the programme has it...otherwise, you hear what comes through accurately. Adding one or two subs would be difficult as the crossover would need to be around 32 or lower and then the phase would get offended from not having point source air motion...it would be like a whale in a washtub to the air motion at that point. Cutting the SP's off at 60hZ would do not real good either since the enclosure is designed ...

Are the problems you mention exclusive to the Timepiece or is it your opinion that it is not possible to affectively integrate a subwoofer with any speaker system. I would also like to hear the Timepiece designer's opinion on this issue.

[rkapadia@ROOP]

audiojerry - wait a minute...I've seen that thread!  .  On a sidebar, I haven't given up on my designing components.  And I *have* finally had  the opportunity to listen to the "$5,000" reference RM40's .

Bob, your designs look very interesting, and on paper they make sense in regards to their strengths and tradeoffs in your design philosophy.  I'd love to hear them some day.

Regards,

Rup

[infiniti driver]

Here are my thoughts on the subject subwoofers or a "subwoofer"

A single bass commode is useful for home theater, because their is a sepate mono mixdown channel dedicated for a single subwoofer.

For 2 channel useage, a single subwoofer is a bad idea. The reasons are as follows:

In many styles of music and recording, their are separate low frequencies, timing wise (phase) from channel 1 to channel 2. The phase differences between the channels cannot be accurately tracked by a single subwoofer due to the physical fact that the cone cannot be in two different places at the same time. This carries over from a "wider than most folks talk about" frequency range. An example would be classical music. If the concert tympani (are) panned left of center, tympani in itself is a very wide range instrument. The hall phase cues between impact of the instrument, the initial far left and the delayed far right reverberation and sound travel dictates phase shifts not only in the low frequency spectrum but throught the entire range of said instrument. For the instrument to be accurately reproduced (located in space, full frequency range and dynamic cohesion) in your listening room, the best solution would be to have 2 full range loudspeakers so that the wave travel perception is not disturbed by the loudspeakers. It may be disturbed by your room, this is something you should look into and take care of.  Live Jazz is another example. Older Beatles recordings where the kick is on the right and the bass line on the left would not be reproduced effectively.
The dynamic lineararity in the summing of the mix and the hall phase cues will be lost. Your "ears/brain" can fill in some of the information but why not do it proper to begin with?

Now this said, you can use a pair of stereo subwoofers. Integration is possable as long as one pays careful attention to the crossover. The use of any electronic, active or passive crossover that is not an "acoustical" crossover, will introduce some ripple to the voice coils and skew timing somewhat. Distance from the drivers in this bandpass may or may not be critical..it is that you are introducing variables that must be addressed.

When I built loudspeakers, my "best" system was a 5 piece. Two pieces were 90hZ and down, two pieces were 90hZ up and the 5th piece was the passive and active crossover network in a rack mount box...simalar to a 4 rack space amplifier. Intergrating this system required wild use of getting the phase accurate at all crossover frequencies and the spacing had to be done geometrically. It took years just to design a set of subs that would integrate with the rest of the system and 2 of those years was spent on the crossover network bandpass at the 90hZ transistion.

Having been through "what it takes" to get accurate subwoofer integration on a wide variety of music in more than one room was a real chore. Something that I could not do easily. I feel that adding subs to any exisiting wide range loudspeaker system is a hit or miss proposition. Some get very "lucky" and I have heard systems where no matter where you set the phase switches, positioned the commodes, et al...overall, the magic from the main two loudspeakers was lost.

Full range loudspeakers like the ESL57, the Martin Logans and the Soundlabs are all but impossable to intergrate subs with.

I say, for home theater, use a sub...you will need it as the L/R channels do not contain the full theatrical effect. For 2 channel usage, go with two subs...you can try them, you may get lucky. Some do get lucky, other do not.

What really matters is when you put your source on, kick back after a tough day at the office, you are rest assured that you do not have to worry about messing with the system constantly from recording to recording and you enjoy your selection to the fullest. I actually have selections I will put in "repeat mode" for 2 hours, simply because I cannot get enough and every time I listen, I am hightened to another level of emotion.

Remember the Kiss Princapal.

On a side note: Loudspeaker cable. I have tried many home brews and compared them all. Once I found the ones that made me forget the home-brews (Thank you Mr. Ray Kimber) my quest for speaker wire building, tweaking and changing came to a rapid halt. I am no longer bothered about the loudspeaker cable.

The Loudspeaker cable in question is the Kimber 8TC. I highly recommend the purchase of them.

I feel at this time the benefit is not worth the hassle unless you are very patient and you get lucky in assembling a system, using subs. Many loudspeakers "NEED" subwoofers. The Timepieces could benefit...or it could cloud up the sound. I feel they really do not need them unless you want to reproduce 26hZ and below with authority. If so, get a pair.

[doug s.]

infinity driver, i agree w/ya, regarding two subs being mandatory for proper 2-channel audio.  from that point on, tho, i must respectfully disagree...  

it has been my experience that i can match my passive subs w/yust about any speaker - monitor or full range - successfully in my room w/a flexible crossover.  i have also had good results in another room, so i don't necessarily believe room issues are an insurmountable problem, tho in some cases, i's sure they can be, as is the case w/speakers w/o subs.

use of a pink noise generator & spectrum analyzer has proved a key tool in getting proper integration w/my extremely flexible marchand xm-9LL x-over.  speakers i've tried include nht super-zero's, thiel 3.5's, swan m1.2's, proac reference-8-signatures,  proac 1sc's, meret re's, totem arro's, gr-research criterion's.  crossover points have been from 50-125hz...

and, i yust discovered a pair of proac 2.5's in the upstairs room today - a relative is moving, & dropped some stuff off the other day when i was at work - these will find their way back downstairs & into the listening room some time in the not-too-distant future, i'm sure.   should be fun!  

anyway, i strongly recommend anyone considering subs to go for it, regardless of whether or not ya run "full-range" speakers.  it's not really all that complicated to set up properly & integrate w/monitors, & they've improved every speaker i've ever tried 'em with, even the thiel 3.5s, which are -2db at 20hz, & which are known for their strong consideration of phase issues in their design.  they worked yust fine, tossing their outboard eq, & crossing at 70hz.

i don't think it's an accident that many hi-end no-holds-barred designs incorporate separate subs into the package, for a four-speaker set-up...

doug s.

[infiniti driver]

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:46 pm    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
infinity driver, i agree w/ya, regarding two subs being mandatory for proper 2-channel audio. from that point on, tho, i must respectfully disagree...  

it has been my experience that i can match my passive subs w/yust about any speaker - monitor or full range - successfully in my room w/a flexible crossover.


Actually, look in the bold type I placed in your post, it this, I see no dissagreement, whatsoever.  As for the rest of your post, you seem experienced enough to pull it off consistantly and that is a great thing!

However, I would like to see an X-over point less than 32hZ and preferably 26hZ (mind this, for my room and set-up) for the SP Techs...if I wanted to get solid below that. Some form of instinct tells me that what the SP Techs do, down to 35hZ does not need reinforcement at all. Doing so would seem tough to integrate.

I will be the first to admit this is conjecture on my part...as I am basing this on having not tried(!) with these speakers. I do have a set of full range 3 way speakers that in this room can reach below 20hZ with extream authority..but going into the woofer section of them and crossing them over to mate with the SP Techs is hardly a chore I am willing to forego.

As a side note

As a mastering engineer, I have some recent recordings of a Nichols&Simpson Organ that has full involvement , flat to way below 20hZ that I recorded.  (Used B&K SPL METER to find the nice flat locale for the mics with the 40hZ and below)  I did two mastering renditions of this recording both on my old reference a year ago...and newly on the SP Techs that cannot reach the bordon pipes with authority as the others can. Of both masterings, the translation that I get with the SP Techs is a fuller sounding, more authentic transfer. I did have to watch the cones to make sure my power response down there was not getting "out of line" so to speak. For a division of two in FQ, I assume X to be X2 in cone motion. Some of those pedals moved the cones a good 1/2 inch peak to peak...but no audible nasties. No release, suspension or other noises...especially no doubling noise. Played back on systems that do reach the teens, I hit the balance very nice to the event. That meant alot to me. Remember, I used them for enjoyment and professionally. They make the cut, time and time again. One thing to note. They have almost too much bass at times in this room. This room was calibrated around other loudspeakers that did well in the 17 to 35hZ range but had a dip at 50 to 80hZ. The SP Techs do not have this dip so I have to be careful in calibration. Of course, I have a calibrated room for measurement which is quite inert. I don't like the sound in there (with any speaker) though..too dead for fun.


Keep up the good work and fun!

I commend you on your subwoofer skills of intergration! I have worked in stellar rooms...and some that were downright horrible. This writer must take into consideration a broad band of reader skills in the area of sub integration and a broader band of rooms.

I see where you and I agree favorable on this issue, I just feel a blanket statment that they will work in many situations (especially X-overed around 60-70hZ) may not be good...but in my rooms, that is what I see.

I also said "go for it" if you can get a good x-over to work.

It is a mixed bag. I simply cannot enjoy quality recordings on a single sub...and we agree there as well.

I do congradulate you!

[doug s.]

infinity driver, thanks for your thoughtful reply...  my present room is quite large, so overloading w/bass isn't really an issue.  

(from the audiocircle gallery):


the marchand x-overs are all quite flexible - ya can set the x-over point at 26, 32, or whatever ya want - it's only a few dollars for different plug-in modules.  and, their latest (xm-44?) allows different hi-pass & lo-pass settings as well.  my xm-9 doesn't  allow this, but it does have a "damping" wolume pot for the chosen x-over frequency, as well as hi-pas & low-pass pots...

regards,

doug s.

[JLM]

I've been a dual sub user, but agree that they can easily be more bother than worth with standing waves and resonances within the room.  In a large enough room (20,000 cu. ft., not a typo) they sounded magnificant.

Regarding speaker cable, I've had Kimber Kable 4TC and was happy, until cryo'd single stand plenum rated CAT5 blew it away.  Now the 4TC is happily relegated to my 2.1 HT system.  My previous CAT5 (simple multi-strand Radio Shack cable I made for $7) was also better, but had trade offs (less efficient and less bass output).  The new CAT5 beats the 4TC on all categories.  Advantages include cost ($20 per 10 foot pair in a group purchase), more inner detail, smoothed out horns to add natural sweetness, and yet provided a relaxed presentation.

[audiojerry]

Great looking music room, Doug - hopefully, your speech impediment has no effect on your listening.  

[doug s.]

Great looking music room, Doug - hopefully, your speech impediment has no effect on your listening.  

hey dgjerry, i do *not* have a thspeestch impediment - iths a *typing* impediment!  

doug s.

[nathanm]

The bass was OK, but your midrange was too colored Doug!

[Andrikos]

whoa!
The master at work!
Nathan, do you mind if I send you 5k pictures so you can photshop them for me?
that white balance is a pain in the booty!