[entrope]

I had the rare pleasure of having the 1801b and 1801c in my listening room for about two weeks.   I used my reference system described in the review and only displaced my ACI Jaguar 2000's to test both sets of speakers.



Comparison was of the B version of the 1801 in a floorstanding model and the C version as a standmount. 

First up was the B which I have listened to before in a larger listening area than my current 13’ X 15’ room. In both cased the gear driving them is the same: Atma-sphere M60 v.III amps, a Meridian 508.24 CDP as the source and a Prometheus's passive pre-amp. All cabling is JPS Superconductor FX.

The B offers superb detail and a forward presentation with the soundstage somewhat in front of the speakers. The strong suit here is imaging. The placement of instruments and voices is obvious with eyes open or closed. I continually find that feeling of awe creeping in as I listen to familiar music that now is changed for the better by the ability to “see” the band through the B’s first class imaging. A very clean separation between instruments is evident and small nuances in the music are readily heard particularly during fade outs at the end of songs.  In my previous experience I thought that the detail started to border on edgy though does not quite get there. In the smaller room I use now this effect was less noticeable and took longer to creep into my awareness.  The highs are generally excellent being clean but not strident except perhaps on recordings that are bright to begin with – in my case a re-master of Poco’s Greatest Hits. Midrange is pure magic from female vocals to piano having a natural feel that just seems right. Bass is articulate though not particularly deep. The coherence of the sound as a whole though detailed with great imaging still sometimes gives the impression individual units presented simultaneously rather than a cohesive piece of music. This is the biggest flaw I find with the B because I lean toward warm and musical speakers.

Dropping the C version in place with the same equipment I find a remarkably similar speaker to version B but improved in some dramatic ways. I find the C has a very coherent presentation unlike the B while maintaining the spooky good imaging and detail of the B. The music always came through as a whole entity not as individual instruments. Delivery was more relaxed compared to the B while still maintaining detail that makes you smile and say “I never heard that before” but all in all it just flowed. The soundstage seemed a bit wider and a bit further back being on plane with the speakers. I notice a more complete sound off-axis translating to a bigger sweet spot.   Though it uses the same tweeter there was never a feeling of edge or etch in the highs and I never got a feeling that the highs were too much. The highs were always sweet and airy with no bite. The same natural midrange and a deeper though slightly less articulate bass were evident. I would characterize both versions as quick - never lagging in transients or becoming muddy in complex music. Quite the accomplishment for a two way speaker. I found female vocalist particularly entrancing on these because of the great mids and cohesive delivery. I found myself listening again to familiar music because I could discern more detail delivered with silky smooth presence.  I will call the B the more analytical sound whereas the C maintains the B’s strong points but with more cohesion and smoothness of presentation.

The C is a surprising step up from an already excellent B.

Music:
REM - Automatic for the People
Poco - Greatest Hits
Police - Ghost in the Machine
Diana Reeves - Goodnight, Good Luck soundtrack
Peter Gabriel - So
Stormfront - Storm Watch
Flying Pickets - Greatest Hits
Dave Grusin - Two for the Road
Heidi Joy - I'll take a Melody
Linda Ronstadt - Living in the USA

[fred]

Did the 1801b's have the .1uf bypass caps in them? 

[Rocket]

Hi,

Thank you for providing an insight into the differences between these two speakers.

Accuton mid/bass drivers are truly very good quality.

Do you have any pictures of the new speaker?

Regards

Rod

[David Ellis]

Did the 1801b's have the .1uf bypass caps in them?   

Yes.

Do you have any pictures of the new speaker?

I... don't think Ralph took any pictures, and.. I am not sure that posting them will have any utility.  I will convey a couple of snippets.  The 1801B demo speakers looked much better than the the 1801C cabinets.  The 1801B cabinets were hand rubbed figured cherry veneer that has aged for about 8 years.  The 1801C cabinets, ahem, marginally tolerable in my wife's living room.  They are mechanically solid, but the finish was "elbow surgery" quality.  My boys chose the colors and the paint was splattered & squirted.  They look like some flavor of modern art. but don't have any classy quality.

As mentioned elsewhere, the 1801C has the same cabinet configuration as the 1801B stand-mounted speaker.  There are only 2 differences:

1.  There is a 1 1/2" roundover on the front baffle.

2.  The back panel is now formally 1 1/2" thick.

Dave

[doug s.]

dave, i'd love to see a pic of a cabinet w/the 1.5" front baffle roundover...

thanks,

doug s.

[entrope]

There is already a good photo of the B version somewhere on this site. Dave has always done superb wood work and finishing on his speakers. The C version I auditioned has a paint job like an Eddy VanHalen guitar or a "Spin Art" project. After listening it did not matter.

Ralph

[fred]

Dave - Way back in the initial post of this thread, you said:

...there will eventually be a pair of 1801C speakers that travels for audition. 

Do you still plan this road trip?  I have no doubt the 1801C is superior to the 1801B, but the question remains: is the level of improvement worth the cost?  The best way to answer this subjective question is through a comparison. 

[doug s.]

There is already a good photo of the B version somewhere on this site. Dave has always done superb wood work and finishing on his speakers. The C version I auditioned has a paint job like an Eddy VanHalen guitar or a "Spin Art" project. After listening it did not matter.

Ralph

i have seen pics w/the 3/4" roundover, i wanna see the 1.5" roundover...

doug s.

[David Ellis]

Okay, you have been very kind in your arm-twisting methods.

Here is a photo.



I am sure that you can now understand why I was & am somewhat reluctant to publish this photo.  It surely makes my workshop skills appear very crude.  My kids' think the paint job is cool, but most folks think the paint job is, ahem, lacking.  I agree with "most folks".

My desire to do this paint job for my own living room was rooted in he following:

1.  After listening to the 1801C I had little/no desire to listen to the 1801B.   Since I completed the 1801C I have not listened to the 1801B.  Painting the prototype 1801C MDF cabinets was the most time-effective solution to obtain a visually "tolerable" appearance.  My wife agrees but has already said these painted cabinets will NOT be in her next home .

2.  About 6 weeks ago I received the okay from my orthopaedic surgeon following my elbow surgery.  I CAN go back to work in my workshop, but my few spare moments have been consumed working my deck handrail.  Following this, my wife has clearly explained that the painted cabinets will depart her living room.

Dave

[doug s.]

thanks, dave.  yes, i can understand mebbe not wanting to show these.     so, i take it the cabinet is no wider than the "b" cabinet, to effect the larger roundover?  and, it's hard to tell from the pic - is the midwoofer still offset, like it is in the "b" cabinets?

thanks,

doug s.

[David Ellis]

  so, i take it the cabinet is no wider than the "b" cabinet, to effect the larger roundover?

Yes - true.  The cabinet remains 9" wide.

and, it's hard to tell from the pic - is the midwoofer still offset, like it is in the "b" cabinets?

No, the woofer is now centered. 

Dave

[JohnR]

Dave, you're a regular budding Jackson Pollock

[jules]

Yes ... very Jackson Pollock and a lot of fun too. Maybe it would be good to let kids paint speakers more often.

You must have a damn big router  !

Jules

[pecker]

You should charge extra for that "Limited Edition" paint job.

[billc]

Dave,

Yes, perhaps a numbered and signed version could become the next big collectable! 

Great sound and art -- all in one place.

It looks like you had fun.   

I have to admit, with the bypass cap upgrade I recently installed with your help, I am having trouble imagining how much better the sound could get.  But of course I trust your ears, perhaps more than my own !   Like many, I am eager to hear the C version. 

I am also happy to read that your elbow is nearing the end of its healing process.  You might want to insure those elbows in the future!   

Bill C

[David Ellis]

I did a web search for Jackson Pollock.  Wow!!  I noticed a few things.

1.  People actually BUY this stuff   ... WOW!

2.  Most of his work is on a white backdrop/base. I thought about this, but black seemed more appropriate for speakers.

3.  Folks who have seen the speakers in my home always seem to comment without being prompted, but the comments are always something like... wow, that's really neat!  I think they would look great in my kid's playroom.  

You must have a damn big router  !

Well, this did present some problems.  My old Rockwell router managed to spin the large radius bit, but the speed was frightening   !  The bit created a fan-effect and a growl at 22000 rpm.  Fortunately, the bit was balanced very well and the vibration was minimal.  After about 2 passes with this arrangement I decided this was a very bad idea.  It was dangerous and spinning the bit at this speed creates a cutter-head speed that is far from optimal.

So, I decided to go to the tool store.  There is a dandy tool store about 5 miles from here. http://www.tighton.com/ .   The folks there allowed me to turn-on the routers (most were fairly quiet).  Unfortunately, NONE of the routers had a metal base (the structure) large enough to allow the 3 1/2" diameter bit to physically pass through.  I eventually decided to purchase the Makita 3612.  I ground about 3/4" of aluminium from the base with my die grinder.  Then I used the carbide router bit to cut through the last portion of the aluminum base.  

I really enjoy the new 3612 Makita router.  It is VERY quiet.  It is VERY smooth.  The adjustments are really slick.  The slow turn-on and slow turn-off are also very nice.  And, I can swap bits with only 1 wrench.  The Makita 3612 is monumentally better than my 30 year old Rockwell and 10 year old Porter cable routers.



Dave

[David Ellis]

I have to admit, with the bypass cap upgrade I recently installed with your help, I am having trouble imagining how much better the sound could get.  But of course I trust your ears, perhaps more than my own !   Like many, I am eager to hear the C version.   

Yep, I was there too.  I never woulda' thunk it could get better.

IMHO (and the opinion of a couple other folks) , if the Sonicap Platinum's are worth $180 sonically, the 1 1/2" radius roundover is worth $400-$500.  I wish this weren't true, but it is.

Dave

[pecker]

Dave, I have one of those 3612's also. It's too late now, but when you want to spin a bit larger than the metal opening, it's a little easier to just make a large, thick baseplate. I used a 3/8" thick piece of clear polycarbonate plastic. You can make this quite large for added stability. Cut the opening in it to 3-3/4" and the widest part of your bit will sit within this opening...no metal work required.

In actuality, my "sub-base" is just a router table insert. Like this with a bigger hole.

[David Ellis]

Wow!! We really do think in similar fashion.  We both have white work surfaces, old Porter Cable/Rockwell Routers, a new Makita, with a thick plastic base!!     However, your stuff looks strikingly clean and this doesn't seem right.  Something certainly must be wrong with your photo.  I believe more sawdust and wood-grime is necessary  aa .





I thought about just using the thick plastic base to accommodate the rebate for the bit, but this is limiting.  Using this method completely eliminates the possibility of progressively using the plunge function of the router to progressively make deeper cuts in the material.  Given the very deep cut from the large router bit, I really don't think its possible/wise to make the roundover 1 very deep pass with a router.  Perhaps this would be possible on a shaper. They have more oomph.

I used a couple layers of plexiglass glued together to form my router base.  Where did you purchase the polycarbonate?  This material would seem more solid than plexiglass.

I really do like having a large and solid base for my router.  This enhances the stability significantly.

Dave

[pecker]

That was just a stock photo from the place that sells the clear plastic:
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/routacc1.html

My shop is little more than a dungeon.