[kryptonitewhite]

pardon the thread jack . This is surely a sick project no doubt .

 But please check this out . A true 22 inch monster with a 900 OZ. magnet    And a 6.5" voice coil setup

 http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/products/subwoofers/jackHammer.cfm


cityjim

It isn't usable..... notice they don't list parameters.    It is a competition sub for burps and that is pretty much all it's good for. 

I'm out to create a truly USABLE subwoofer with the inductance of a midrange driver, usable in sane sized enclosures that is as linear as anything ever made.   

That is the design goal... not a car audio competition product although I'm sure there will be a couple guys wanting to use it as such.

As a matter of fact, kevin, I was too embarrased to ask in public so i was gonna email you... So this beast can't be ported...too many issues. But who says I'll be running her full tilt to where those issues become a problem?

I have 12 cubes for a wall, been deciding on dual 6cubes @ 20Hz or single 12, 20Hz or lower...but port area/volume probably won't permit any lower.

Is this thing still a go? Still looking at over 50mm Xmax?

The parthenon comment earlier was before starting the thread at the beginning was dropped midway from another thread

[kryptonitewhite]

I wouldn't blow a $1500 subwoofer to prove my manhood. Although I'm sure the process would be exhilarating!!!

I'm guessing simply doing the old wall socket, free air or not, is out on this one...

[Kevin Haskins]

Right now this is vaporware.    We have the design phase done but we are having difficulty finding a vendor that will build them.    I'll update when I get more information.

[Oborous]

You have to respect a vendor that has enough balls to post a statement like that.  Thanks Kevin.

(Though I'm sad, I came up with a WAF acceptable design that would have been awe inspiring, at least modeled on paper)

Right now this is vaporware.    We have the design phase done but we are having difficulty finding a vendor that will build them.    I'll update when I get more information.

[davepete]

Right now this is vaporware.    We have the design phase done but we are having difficulty finding a vendor that will build them.    I'll update when I get more information.

Are they balking at the 21" form factor?  Maybe trying to get a foot in the door by pushing the more "normal" sized 18" driver first would get things kicked off.  Just a thought.

Dave

[Kevin Haskins]

Right now this is vaporware.    We have the design phase done but we are having difficulty finding a vendor that will build them.    I'll update when I get more information.

Are they balking at the 21" form factor?  Maybe trying to get a foot in the door by pushing the more "normal" sized 18" driver first would get things kicked off.  Just a thought.

Dave

No... it is more a question of money.   Places want minimum orders and my money is finite.   I have to spread it over a lot of bread so what gets done and what doesn't is a complex choice.   

I make that choice in light of a lot of factors that are not necessarily obvious to consumers.     



 
   

[acencsu]

Is this thing dead on the table or are you still thinking of building this monster?

[Kevin Haskins]

Is this thing dead on the table or are you still thinking of building this monster?

Not dead.... I'm waiting on a couple things that will help us control cost.    There is the possibility of an open-tool basket that could be usable with some modification.    That significantly cuts our tooling cost.   

My basic guideline is that if I cannot do it for $1500 or less, it dies.    It is a "go" if I find a way of doing it in that price range.   I've already tooled a cone & surround that will work with this that is getting used on the 21" version of the Maelstrom so we have that under our belt.   If the open-tool basket works, then all I have to tool is the lift-ring and the spider.    Both of those are <$7-8K so then it is just a matter of getting our build-house to do them in a quantity that I can afford to run.   

[Kevin Haskins]

Just an update on this.   The Sicko isn't any closer to release (maybe a little) but the Maelstrom-21" is on track and it isn't chopped liver.   From looking around, it should be one of the most potent drivers on the planet.

These are not just "output" type subs either.   These are state-of-the-art drivers.    There is very few if any solutions on the market that will touch a properly executed Maelstrom-21" build, regardless of price.    These drivers are DEAD QUITE under full 60mm peak-peak excursion in free-air, low native inductance with very advanced inductance control via multiple shorting rings.     

Sitting next to a Shiva (12" High-output subwoofer) the Shiva looks like a midrange.     These things are just massive. 

I'm pretty stoked.   The Maelstrom-18" is a beast but these take it to another level.    Availability is looking like Aug 09.

[poseidonsvoice]

Kevin,

That's sick I tell you! 

Of course a Maelstrom either 18 inch or 21 inch in a sealed cabinet with a Velodyne SC1250 driving it would be great, and quite affordable actually.





Anand.

[Kevin Haskins]

Kevin,

That's sick I tell you! 

Of course a Maelstrom either 18 inch or 21 inch in a sealed cabinet with a Velodyne SC1250 driving it would be great, and quite affordable actually.





Anand.

Yea... compared to what you would have to buy commercially to compete with it.   I'm not sure you can easily find a commercial sub to compete with it.   

A JL Fathom is a good little sub.   Two of them (uses the 13W7-D1.5 @ $1200 each)  is about equal to a single Maelstrom 18" (693 cm^2 cone area vs. 1182 cm^2 & about the same stroke, JL may have an advantage there but wouldn't be able to use it in that small box with only 2.5KW of power).  I think they run around $3K and a single 18" Maelstrom in a sealed box eats it for lunch although the little JL is a better match for highly equalized small boxes (less cone area is an advantage & coil has more power handling capability).    You pay big dollars for a small decrease in size though because a single sealed Maelstrom can work pretty good in 4 cubic feet.    The price isn't even comparable.    The Maelstrom with an SMS-1, and a big beefy pro-amp (Face Audio F1200-TS) is only $1500.   You can get a custom made box from a local cabinet maker that matches your home for a lot cheaper than you can buy a single Fathom and have about twice the headroom.   

A single Maelstrom 18" with a pair of 18" Passive Radiators would demolish a 3-4 Fathoms though and occupy less space.   A Maelstrom-21" with a pair of 21" Passive Radiators is yet another step up the food chain for not much more money.   They are going to be around $600 each.   Don't know what the PRs are going to cost yet.   

I need to increase my prices.   

[Craig Treusdell]

Kevin would you like my money now? 

I'm still a little worried about the box weight. 12 cubes (estimated). 28" cubed. Won't be my DJ sub

And how could one live without inverting the sub??? Maybe a plexi front with internal mirrors on the other 5 walls?

[Kevin Haskins]

Kevin would you like my money now? 

I'm still a little worried about the box weight. 12 cubes (estimated). 28" cubed. Won't be my DJ sub

And how could one live without inverting the sub??? Maybe a plexi front with internal mirrors on the other 5 walls?

Yea... it would be a heavy one to tote around.    You definitely want to use Baltic Birch rather than MDF on that construction.   

I'll take your money when I have drivers to ship.      I could certainly use it now but those pre-order deals are a slippery slope.      

[Rightbrained]

Looks like Kevin is going to get more of my money around August

[oz_audio_todd]

Hey Kevin,
firstly, my apologies for this question from a part of the world that cant get either as an option, but I cant be the only one to wonder this: But what do you expect the Sicko to do that 4 or so of the Malstrom 21's wont for about the same sort of money (except occupy a quarter or so of the space of course)?
Thanks.
And seriously would either choice be safe for use in anything not made of brick, steel, concrete or combination of all 3??

[Kevin Haskins]

Hey Kevin,
firstly, my apologies for this question from a part of the world that cant get either as an option, but I cant be the only one to wonder this: But what do you expect the Sicko to do that 4 or so of the Malstrom 21's wont for about the same sort of money (except occupy a quarter or so of the space of course)?
Thanks.
And seriously would either choice be safe for use in anything not made of brick, steel, concrete or combination of all 3??

You nailed it.   It is just more output for a given format/size.    That is solely what you are paying for in extreme products.   

[oz_audio_todd]

Im sorry, but in this part of the world, you could call either of those puppies all manner of extreme!
Negating size of box, How many Malstrom 21's do you think should it take to be on par with the sicko?

[Kevin Haskins]

Im sorry, but in this part of the world, you could call either of those puppies all manner of extreme!
Negating size of box, How many Malstrom 21's do you think should it take to be on par with the sicko?

I wish it where that simple.  You can do the math and look at the Vd but that doesn't really tell you the entire story.    I'd take two drivers, working at low excursion over one being pushed at higher excursion.   Why?  Well...as you push excursion the driver becomes progressively more non-linear.   You have higher power compression, more Cms compression etc...    Two Maelstrom-21"s should be better than a single Sicko-21" for those reasons.     But the two Maelstroms would each take bigger enclosures so it isn't a fair comparison from an engineering standpoint.    You gain a lot by adding enclosure volume so when you allow that extra latitude in the comparison you heavily weight the comparison in the favor of the two Maelstroms.   

[pldesautels]

I hope you still are planning to build the Sicko subwoofer as I believe you underestimate the value to consumers in the home theater market who are willing to pay for a product that is cutting edge with the kind of performance you are projecting from a small enclosure.  You can also use any excess weight issues as a selling point since most people associate a heavier the product with better quality.  There are many designers who start out with a given price point in mind but find that they would need to make to many sacrifices in quality to meet the price point they originally intended so are forced to raise the price.  That does not mean your product cannot be successful.  I agree the volume will go down but your current target is not out of line with other subs that are seen as market leaders.  If JL audio can set a retail of $3,600 for the F113, and look at the pricing for the F212 and G213 and you certainly are still a steal at anything close to $3K and that's besides comparing a 21" driver vs 13".  I have seen another highly rated 18" subwoofer driver listed at $2K so I think you are hitting an appropriate target.  Forgive my rambling here but maybe you should get a sense of demand by taking deposits toward the first order and if it ends up not happening then you make the deposit refundable.  BTW put me down for two.

[Kevin Haskins]

I hope you still are planning to build the Sicko subwoofer as I believe you underestimate the value to consumers in the home theater market who are willing to pay for a product that is cutting edge with the kind of performance you are projecting from a small enclosure.  You can also use any excess weight issues as a selling point since most people associate a heavier the product with better quality.  There are many designers who start out with a given price point in mind but find that they would need to make to many sacrifices in quality to meet the price point they originally intended so are forced to raise the price.  That does not mean your product cannot be successful.  I agree the volume will go down but your current target is not out of line with other subs that are seen as market leaders.  If JL audio can set a retail of $3,600 for the F113, and look at the pricing for the F212 and G213 and you certainly are still a steal at anything close to $3K and that's besides comparing a 21" driver vs 13".  I have seen another highly rated 18" subwoofer driver listed at $2K so I think you are hitting an appropriate target.  Forgive my rambling here but maybe you should get a sense of demand by taking deposits toward the first order and if it ends up not happening then you make the deposit refundable.  BTW put me down for two.

The bottom-line concerning developing anything new and pushing the limits of existing design is that it is risky.   Not just because of the market conditions and the questions of how it will sell, but because you have to spend a lot up front on tooling, R&D and general expenditures that are gone... poof... out the door before you ever sell a single product.    Also... a subwoofer is a moving part and people use and abuse them over time.   Especially those that are designed to push the limits.    As a result, there is a cost to selling subwoofers that you only pay on the backside of selling the product (warranty).   

I have plenty of experience selling and developing subs and as much as I'd love to develop the coolest sub on the planet, my financial realities are otherwise.    I don't have the capital to do everything I'd like to do so I have to pick and choose the projects that I think have the lowest risk, and highest chance of financial return.    The Sicko isn't in that category.   It is a high-risk, with what I project as modest rate of return.