[darrenyeats]

Do you have a link to the tubes vs. solid state blindfold study?

Here is one at least http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

[mcullinan]

Your welcome.
Mike

[brj]

Circle facilitator checking in...

A gentle reminder - please keep comments constructive and respectful.  Value judgments, for example, are unique to each individual.  You may earn 10x what I do and, as a result, you may consider a given cable, component, car, house, personal jet, etc., a steal.  If that's the case, then more power to you, and enjoy!  I, on the other hand, might therefore consider such goods completely unobtainable, and thus value it differently.

Also, there is certainly some room for differences in cable design to effect overall system sonics.  The RLC characteristics of your gear will almost certainly be different than someone else's, and thus a cable that performs ideally in your system may not work in someone else's.  (Greater sensitivity to capacitance rather than impedance, higher current demands, etc.)  Your system may also be well shielded and thus more immune to a given cable picking up RFI and EMI.

Are these issues first-order drivers?  Maybe not.  Is your system resolving enough for these issues to matter at all?  Maybe not.  For some people, however, they may make a noticeable difference.

By the way, I would encourage people to provide technical details on a product they are reviewing and their system.  If they have the background to be able to map some of those details to what they are specifically hearing, so much the better, but don't take that as a license to unleash your random text generator on a technical jargon dictionary.


Edit:  Good timing, Bob!   I'll leave this thread as is for the moment (due to time constraints), but will prune it if it veers any further off course.  Thank you!

[rajacat]

Do you have a link to the tubes vs. solid state blindfold study?

Here is one at least http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

Do you use just  standard cheap computer cords in your system?

[Daygloworange]

Do you have a link to the tubes vs. solid state blindfold study?

rajacat,

What Windchaser was talking about wasn't a formal study, but, during a blind amp comparison, we had between 60 to 70 audiophiles (over the course of 2 days) subjectively evaluate different amps. There were tube amps, SS, and battery powered tri-path based amps.

We had gone to some length to treat the listening space and conditions, the participants were given track sheets to track amplifiers(by code number only).

All amplifiers were level matched to a 95db level with white noise prior to listening. It was at the end of the event when we announced which amps were associated with which code numbers, did we find that a lot of people mistook tubes for SS and vice versa.

Even people who had brought their own amps made the mistake (about whether they were tubes or SS), or couldn't pick out their own amp.

It was a lot of fun. If you can pull something like this off, I really recommend you do it. It was really educational.

Look around further around the TAAS circle, as there are a couple of offshoot threads where people actually posted their comments from the Comparo, but the technical details of Comparo can be found here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=34570.90



Just for the record, I've done PC cable swap comparisons (on power amps) a few times. I have heard differences, and the same ones that other people who were there did. Based on my experiences, PC's can make a difference. The differences are not however necessarily due to dollar value. It's very system dependant, and the winner can be the cheaper of the PC's tried.

So it's not all bad news. In my experience (on power amps, in my system), it was not necessarily the more expensive cord that worked better.

But I will say that the greatest gains I've experienced recently, have been with room acoustics, and better filtered (and cleaner, better current providing) power supplies in front end components.

Cheers

[Photon46]

In the spirit of our facilitator's suggestion to mention technical details, I thought I'd throw out a couple of observations regarding my admittedly narrow sampling of aftermarket cords. As I mentioned  elsewhere, the DIY Crump cords & DIY Ven Haus recipe cords (all flavors) made with inexpensive Schurter IEC and Pass & Seymour male ends really didn't affect my system too much for the better. There were modest improvements, nothing remarkable. However, the latest two pc additions, DIY Cryo-Parts ACII w/Furutech male & female connectors and the Virtual Dynamics Power 3, really netted obvious positive gains.
  Now what I find quite interesting is how both cords made real positive sonic improvements through such different technical means and construction. The Cryo-Parts cable is foil shielded with high purity multi-strand conductors and the Furutech connectors are very well made for their price. For about $135 in parts, it's a very nicely made cable that has parts quality better than many $500 cables. The Virtual Dynamics cord is made from cheap materials (low end Schurter plugs and THN solid core copper wire.) Nothing about  it's parts quality prepared me for it's sound. The only thing remarkable about it is that the tubing/sleeve contains powdered metallic particles which are packed around the conductors.
  Both cords cost about $150 (plus your labor for the Cryo-Parts) and they each perform really well, but they couldn't be more different in construction. There's obviously (to my ears) more than one way to construct good sounding cables. I'm tempted to try a DIY cord using Virtual Dynamics particle pack technique with high quality connectors to see what results.

[darrenyeats]

Even people who had brought their own amps made the mistake (about whether they were tubes or SS), or couldn't pick out their own amp.

Interesting. This reminds me of other amp blind listening reports (including the Stereomojo shoot outs).

But I will say that the greatest gains I've experienced recently, have been with room acoustics, and better filtered (and cleaner, better current providing) power supplies in front end components.

Do you use just  standard cheap computer cords in your system?

About the link: you asked for a link . I use the standard power cord that came with the Krell and for the SB3 I have an inexpensive linear regulated PS (that replaces the standard SMPS) which has an integrated power cord.
Darren

[rajacat]

Dayglow,

I imagine that one could have a taste of audio overdose during an audio comparo thereby clouding judgment . To compare so many amps in quick succession would fry my brain. Fried brain or not I'd still like to attend such an event.  

[brj]

Topic has been pruned.

Non-productive posts from either side of the aisle, posts responding to such posts, posts with eye-rolling, etc. have been moved to http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=51537.0.

Again, all opinions are welcome, but please keep them on-topic and play nicely with your fellow audiophiles!

[Daygloworange]

Dayglow,
I imagine that one could have a taste of audio overdose during an audio comparo thereby clouding judgment . To compare so many amps in quick succession would fry my brain. Fried brain or not I'd still like to attend such an event.  

Yeah, honestly rajacat, there are some pros and cons to having an event with this many variables being auditioned. But as I posted later on in that thread, this started out as an impromtu get together with 2 or 3 amps, and it snow balled.

Considering that, I loved how it turned out. We clearly heard differences in amps. My one really interesting observation was that the Fur Elise (Bagatelle in A minor, Wo0 59) Beethoven piece, which was a really quiet(low SPL) solo piano recording, with a lot of ambient microphone self noise, was really revealing of body and tonality of the amplifiers.

Interesting. This reminds me of other amp blind listening reports (including the Stereomojo shoot outs).

Yeah, I had consulted with Danny from GR Research, quite a bit on how to structure the event. He's done lots of these types of comparo's in the past, and he gave me some important things to consider to not have people get too overwhelmed, and to not have peoples interest wane.

I can tell you that the crowd we had was listening as sharp and focused on the last amps, as they were on the first amps. So it turned out great. Better than I would have thought. 

This event went a long way to confirming for me, to not be biased and come to firm conclusions about things in audio until I try them (at least a few times) first.
 My first couple of impromtu attempts at power cord comparo's yielded no audible differences. I didn't hear any difference(I didn't have a prior bias going in to the comparison, except to say that while I thought it more than plausible, I hoped I wouldn't hear a difference), but I simply wasn't going to come to the firm conclusion that PC's couldn't possibly make a difference.

Cheers

[BobM]

We conducted an experiment at one meeting where we had no more than 3-4 people listening to a system in a room at one time. Several cuts were played for aboiut 2 minutes each, just enough for memory to be retained. After the 4-5 groups went through this exercise we then brought everybody into the room (@20 people) and listened again to the same 2 minute cuts.

It was obvious to everyone that the high frequencies were being rolled off significantly with more people in the room. The bass also tightened up a bit.

Bottom line, if you're going to do any kind of comparison it is best to do it with a limited number of people. Just enough to sit in the middle, maybe 2 rows deep. Any more than that and you're too far off axis or actually acting as a sonic absorber and affecting the sound.

It's also hard to keep more than a few people quiet enough during any kind of group testing. It's also damn near impossible to keep the critical listening focus and interest up over a long session, even for one person. I found it took me several separate short sessions to get a feel for differences, often going back and forth repeatedly to pick out nuances.

As I think I stated in my review, the differences were subtle, not staggering. Only going from A-B and back again could I pick them out. It was immediately obvious from the darkest to the lightest sounding cord every time, or from the most detailed to the least detailed, but in between - not so.

It's really a matter of whether those nuances are worth it to you and your ears, since you will be sitting in that chair day in and day out noticing their presence/absence.

Enjoy,
Bob

[Brown]

 


brown

[mmakshak]

  Did you compare any of these cords to the Lessloss?  Also, I bought Volex 17604's in quantity for under $40(6 for $35) from one of the suppliers, but I had to spend at least $35, and deal with them by getting an email quote.

[BobM]

Updated the reviews on page 1 with my new reference cables from Kaplan Cable. I am now using these throughout the system.

Enjoy,
Bob

[Brown]

Could you describe the difference heard. Was there a change in tonality , bass, soundstage, imaging, detail, weight, etc, etc. What cords did they replace ? Did you insert one at a time or all at once ?
   Thanks for the effort and the results.

[BobM]

You need to read the first few pages of this thread and I think you'll find the answers you seek.

Bob

[twitch54]

Discussing cables with audiophiles ... annoying. Feeling good ... priceless 

But seriously, I think there is a logical explaination of why wires sound different and interact differently with different components. Just think about it and it actually will make sense, even to an engineer.

Bob, again as others have said nice job of 'opening ones eyes and ears' to the possibilities !

Myself, while I will acknowledge difference in cabling, wire, call it what you want, I absolutely cannot fathom some of the ridiculus prices some 'audiofools' pay for their "wire"
Anybody that thinks it's nescessary to pay 4 figures for a PC needs serious help !

ahhhhh ....the ways we like to feed our egos !!

[BobM]

I agree with the pricing problem, but remember it is a business and better quality or performance can demand higher pricing. Extensive up front research and testing as well as hand built quality also can demand higher pricing. There's a lot of research that goes into these things. That is money spent up front.

Of course the manufacturer can decide to go the "China" approach and undercut the competition with a lower priced product. Of course, unlike many low priced imported products making this one of higher quality and performance could totally undermine and corner the marketplace, lowering prices overall and making us all happier.

As a DIY'er myself I frown on the markup over materials cost, but I do understand the differentiation factor, the marketing factor, the elitist-ego factor and the profit factor in all of this. And we are a free market sociaty, so if people are willing to pay ...

It's just too bad that not everyone has the chance to compare and contrast different products and come to an educated decision like I did. Especially since what worked for me may or may not work as well for others in their system on their different equipment.

Enjoy,
Bob

[Occam]

Bob,

Many thanks for updating the comparison to include my own KaplanCable H.E. cords. The one significant detail not in your system description is the specific outlets you use in your system. We've discussed this before, and I believe you use Pass & Seymour 5262A duplex receptacles. Folks seem to miss the fact that the outlets have a significant impact on the sound, and as our specific preferences are less than $20, for all but the lowest cost aftermarket cords, like the original Volex, a receptacle replacement, IMO, offers the maximum bang for the buck.

I've voiced my cords for the Hubbell HBL5262 industrial specification and HBL8200H hospital grade outlets (15amp duplexs, the 20amp equivalents are the HBL5362 and HBL8300H). These are readily available, like your P&Ss, and rather than bespoke, these are simply outlets built to the highest of industrial/hospital standards, but fortuitously eschew nickel plating for ultimate corrosion resistance, which IMO is a large sonic plus.

I know you prefer the Pass and Seymours, but frankly, I don't have the patience to wait those 400??? hours for the initial upper bass emphasis and 'feathery' treble to metamorphise. With the Hubblell receptacles (like my cords), if they aren't your cuppa after (at most) a week, they never will be.....

Natureboy made some comments on the Hubbell outlets in his review of my powercords -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65711.0

Then again, there are those who strongly feel that nothing but Oyaide and/or Furutech outlets and connectors will do. I don't and prefer the Hubbells, but again, its all about system matching.

My advise to anyone seeking to improve their AC mains delivery, is to first, especially if you've a typical residential grade outlet in their wall, is relplace it. Yes, I've heard the recommendations for the Cooper Hospital grade receptacle available at Lowes for $10. I've heard it, and can only state that you're better of with spending $12 for the Hubbell at Stayonline.com. Ideally, your (dedicated) line has 2 or more duplexes, so after you acclimate to the many benefits of the Hubbell, you can compare it to a P&S or the more bespoke outlets available if you've a mind to.

FWIW,
Paul

[whubbard]

Here's the link by the way for the Hubbell HBL5262:
http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=7088
$12 just like Paul said.
I like the Hubbells and used them in my DIY 'power-box'. The power box is fed by one Furutech outlet in the wall.

I don't like to think that power cords affect the performance of my audio system, but I've heard it. I went it a skeptic and came out a believer.

-West