[David Ellis]

Edit: April 14, 2010

Jim Salk is now the sole purveyor of the 1801 following a crossover revision by Dennis Murphy.  Also, they managed to implement the W18E001 driver in a transmission line.  This makes profoundly good sense given the Thiele/Small parameters of the W18E001 driver!  The primary reason I didn't do this was shipping problems.  Jim has been shipping larger speakers with great success, and I am certain his implementation of the 1801 in a transmission line is a dandy speaker.

http://www.salksound.com/speakers_veracity_1801-tl.shtml

*****


I will no longer address any questions regarding the 1801B via private email.  I will, however, be glad to address them in this discussion string.

I have made this decision for several reasons.

1.  I am pleasantly surprised with the high level of performance from the Accuton C95.  The quality  of midrange reproduction is a complete surprise, and the base is on par with the very best 7" midbass available (IMO) - the SS8545.  The bass performance of the W18 driver was it's only slightly weak area of performance. The Accuton C95 completely fixes this problem.

2.  SEAS changed the production W18 considerably.  The inductance is higher (this is undesirable), and the shape of the frequency response shows considerably less dip between 2500hz and 3500hz.  This is due to a different surround.  The higher inductance is a minor issue, but the response curve change would necessitate a completely different crossover.

3.  A very minor issue has been some minor quality control issues across production runs of drivers.  I have some irritation with this, but only because I am very anal.  These changes have been extremely minor when compared to some of the problems my peers have encountered with other companies.  All in all, John Stone and SEAS have been a first class company to deal with over the past 6-7 years.  Chances are very good that I will be using SEAS drivers in future projects. 

Dave

[hubert]

1.  I am pleasantly surprised with the high level of performance from the Accuton C95.  The midrange is a complete surprise, and the base is on par with the every best 7" midbass available (IMO) - the SS8545.  The base performance of the W18 driver was it's only slightly weak area of performance. The Accuton C95 completely fixes this problem.

I guess your choice and listening impressions are right. I'm currently working on the voicing stage of my next 3-way ported monitors using the C2-220NT6 up to 750-800hz. Even with a 57Hz f3 this driver REALLY kills a Seas CA26re4x sealed. Amazing!

[David Ellis]

I remain somewhat mystified regarding the exceptionally good bass performance of the Accuton drivers.  There doesn't seem to be anything I can objectively identify that should create this characteristic.  Perhaps the Titanium former is a really good heat-sink.  Perhaps the Accuton voice coil wire insulation and glue are super-duper thermal conductors.  Perhaps the slightly higher Qms is a factor.  I am quite certain the underhung motor is a positive factor.

I also noticed the price of the Accuton drivers has gone up sharply !!  I recall checking the price of the C220 Neo driver a few months ago, and the price was about $530.  Now it's $840 via Madisound - ouch!!  Well, I suppose it was going to happen eventually.   The $$ margin on these drivers was quite narrow, and the declining value of the dollar is VERY painful  .

Learned from ACI Mike that I much preferred the bass from the ACI Jaguar over the 1801.  Despite less bass depth from the Jaguar, the snap and dynamics were indeed better.  I do think that getting to an F3 of 50hz is a necessity, but going lower than this is largely a subjective preference.  The only real problem is that sooooooo many commercial loudspeaker vendors exaggerate their claims.  Probably the most frequent comment about the 1801 at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest was... "It only has 40hz of bass extension.  It sounds much deeper than that.".  This unfortunate comment is due to the exaggerations from other folks  .

But, it is what it is.  I can only control the integrity of my rhetoric.

[DavidS]

Dave - not sure if my math is just lousy or I am missing something with this announcement but trying to understand where Ellis Audio is heading if the flagship 1801b is no more.  Is this good news or bad news.  Love my 1801s 3 years in.

David

[David Ellis]

Dave - not sure if my math is just lousy or I am missing something with this announcement but trying to understand where Ellis Audio is heading if the flagship 1801b is no more.  Is this good news or bad news.  Love my 1801s 3 years in.

Indeed the 1801B was and is a wonderful speaker.  I still have them in my living room.  The 1801 flagship speaker is getting an upgrade. 

For those folks who have a completed 1801B, my reccommendation is that they keep and enjoy them  .  However, there have been 1-2 folks who installed .1uf Sonicap Plaintum capacitors in their 1801B (including me) with very positive results.  This is my only recommendation for folks with the 1801B.  I... don't really recommend folks spend the relatively significant amount of $$ and upgrade their 1801B to an 1801C.  The cost would be significant and the 1801B is already a very competent speaker.

Dave

[BrianM]

Dave can't resist damning his 1801B with faint praise.  It's more than a "very competent" speaker.  It's excellent in all respects.  That means the 1801C will be extraordinary indeed. 

Just how much would it cost to upgrade btw?

[David Ellis]

Well,

The primary inductors could be unwound to the correct value for the 1801C - they could be saved.

The tweeters could be saved.

Two capacitors could be saved. 

The port, and posts could be saved.

Everything else would be new.

It would be... expensive... probably $800, but I this isn't exact.  The C95 woofer is now $368 per unit.  Yes, $368  . And, as mentioned previously, upgrading would be a bunch of work and $$ that I don't think is warranted.  You are already very familiar with the sound of the 1801B, and yes, it's that good.  I suppose I can say this now that I no longer sell it.  It's not self aggrandizement  aa .  Maybe?  Anyhow, the 1801C is more similar than different.

If you are bent on a change, the .1uf Sonicap Platinum capacitors really are a pleasant surprise  .

[BrianM]

Thanks, Dave, maybe I'll give the caps a go some time.  Sounds intriguing.  I guess you're right that the conversion to C wouldn't be the most cost-effective upgrade in the world.  I definitely admire your being upfront about it, when it's you who has something to sell.

[David Ellis]

I guess you're right that the conversion to C wouldn't be the most cost-effective upgrade in the world.

 

Indeed,

Also, the other consideration is the Accuton C95 driver flange is about 1/8" larger diameter than the W18 driver flange.  Expanding the driver recess would require a pattern jig, and getting this perfect is VERY difficult.  I tried it once.  My pattern jig flexed and the driver recess was not level.  I effectively ruined the cabinets  .

Dave

[BrianM]

I guess you're right that the conversion to C wouldn't be the most cost-effective upgrade in the world.

 

Indeed,

Also, the other consideration is the Accuton C95 driver flange is about 1/8" larger diameter than the W18 driver flange.  Expanding the driver recess would require a pattern jig, and getting this perfect is VERY difficult.  I tried it once.  My pattern jig flexed and the driver recess was not level.  I effectively ruined the cabinets  .

Dave

Yeah, I wouldn't dream of attacking my cabinets by Salk with one of those...

[TomW16]

Also, the other consideration is the Accuton C95 driver flange is about 1/8" larger diameter than the W18 driver flange

Another option is to find a rabbiting bit that would provide the correct flange size.  Going bigger is better than the reverse 

All the best with the 1801C speakers Dave.

Cheers,
Tom

[Rocket]

Hi Dave,

Have you tried Zalytron for the accuton c95 driver?  They are listed at $275us but I am unsure if they are the up to date prices.

Regards

Rod

[David Ellis]

Have you tried Zalytron for the accuton c95 driver?  They are listed at $275us but I am unsure if they are the up to date prices.
 

Hmmm, I didn't check there.  I checked Madisound and Soniccraft.  My hunch is that Elliot Zalytron will change his prices in the near-future too.

Dave

[Rocket]

Hi Dave,

With the price increase in the accuton c95 speaker do you have a rough figure that the speaker kit will sell for?  I'm pretty keen on building this speaker in the near future.

Accuton drivers are simply awesome sounding.

Regards

Rod

[David Ellis]

With the price increase in the accuton c95 speaker do you have a rough figure that the speaker kit will sell for?

This question has been answered here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50882.0

Accuton drivers are simply awesome sounding.

Yes, they are very good drivers, and marginally better than the SEAS W18 drivers subjectively.  But, there are more similarties than differences in the grand scheme of things.  Both are very low distortion drivers with true-piston cones.  This places these drivers in a very small category/genre.  I could easily live with either line of drivers in my living room.

Dave

[Rocket]

Hi Dave,

I haven't heard the seas driver that you use.  I have a pair of nuforce s9 speakers and I think they use a cheaper seas mid/bass driver.

I have heard a lot of speakers that use focal, phl and accuton drivers.  The accuton drivers are so transparent and have a really nice natural sound.

Regards

Rod

[Rick Craig]

I guess you're right that the conversion to C wouldn't be the most cost-effective upgrade in the world.

 

Indeed,

Also, the other consideration is the Accuton C95 driver flange is about 1/8" larger diameter than the W18 driver flange.  Expanding the driver recess would require a pattern jig, and getting this perfect is VERY difficult.  I tried it once.  My pattern jig flexed and the driver recess was not level.  I effectively ruined the cabinets  .

Dave

That's the older version of the C95. The current version has a new frame style which is actually a little smaller than the W18. I don't know if any other changes were made to the driver beyond that.

[David Ellis]

That's the older version of the C95. The current version has a new frame style which is actually a little smaller than the W18. I don't know if any other changes were made to the driver beyond that.

Yup, indeed.  The current production run has a frame with a smaller flange.  I have this flange on some prototype drivers too.  It's a decent frame too.  The old frame remains available for those who are willing to purchase direct from the factory.  However, I have heard that communication with the folks at Accuton is becoming difficult, and the lead-time for drivers is about 8 months. 

No other changes were made to the C95 driver - just the frame.  I think I'll continue using the old frame if possible.  I like a wider flange.  It makes mounting a bit easier.  The Scanspeak 7" drivers (Great Drivers) have a very thin flange and very small screw holes.  I didn't like this aspect of the Scan drivers.

Dave

[tktran303]

Hi Dave,

Do you have any more 1801B kits left?

regards,
Thanh

[David Ellis]

Unfortunately, no.  The new version of the SEAS W18 driver is completely incompatible.

Sorry,