[DavidS]

I am amazed that there isn't more audio gear that is built / designed for the small room.  The state of the art speakers I read about all require large rooms, need to be pulled out from the wall, benefit from room treatment, require breathing room, just to physically fit many speakers is a challenge.  As boomers downsize, as our cities become more dense it makes sense that more of us will be looking for great sound in small rooms.   

I have just such a room (home office 11 x 12).  I have given up on trying to squeeze my big room stuff into it and am starting over somewhat.  I have an approximate budget of $2,000 and need to purchase new speakers and a new amp (integrated?).  My source is good - a squeezebox through an audio note dac.  The room is untreated (and not likely to be treated).  I listen nearfield.  Been thinking low power and high efficiency speakers but even high eff speakers seem geared for the larger room.

Any one else have good sound in your small room.  If you were starting over and moving into a small room what would you do? 

[DaveC113]

Yup, I just moved from 3 way towers to single drivers for a small space, and got the the Omega XRS. They have some qualities that make them suited to a small area... controled dispersion, small size, and the coherence of the single driver makes nearfield listening preferable. The XRS will also extend down to 40 Hz, something not many small multi-driver speakers will do.

As far as room size preference, the nature of sound is such that smaller rooms just don't sound as good, and never will because of reflections and resonances... In the size room you're talking about a couple of bass traps would be a great idea, I'd put that in the budget too (if you don't, resonances asociated with 8', 11' and 12' room dimensions will probably mangle the bottom 2 octaves very badly) ... I'd probably go with an integrated tube amp, lots of choices there...

$0.02,
Dave

[nrenter]

Spend some time over at the Acoustics circle.

Contrary to popular belief, you can get great sound in a small room.

[bluemike]

Not for nothing check out my Tonian Acoustic Speakers I have here on sale

They will work very well in a small room and they sound very good close to the walls

I had them in a room similar to yours 11x12 with good effect

I've auditioned other monitors in my room and the Tonians to my ears sounded "right"

[satfrat]

As far as room size preference, the nature of sound is such that smaller rooms just don't sound as good, and never will because of reflections and resonances... $0.02,
Dave

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. Sure there are a different set of issues that need to be worked out with small rooms but that also holds true with large rooms. I personally feel I have a soundstage to die for in my 11' x 17' x 7' room. A large room will play louder but not necessarily have a good sound stage depth. Then you have personal preference that comes into play but to make a blanket statement that a small room can never sound as good as a large room just isn't true. In fact depending on a person's preference, a small room may well sound better than any large room could to that person. But you do bring up a valid point with room ineraction all tho there's a lot of good room treatment out there along with digital correction that can deal with the smallest of rooms. So for a small room, room treatment of it's first reflections along with any corner, wall/wall, wall/ceiling where soundwaves will collect and/or combine,,,, would be the first issue to deal with. Then small room or large,,,the next issue would be a system foundation or clean power. A systems depth of sound is proportional to the amount of ground noise in thier components that veil the sound and rob it of it's depth & clarity. You get a sound stage that has great depth and with that an ability for the speakers to disappear, then you're gonna have a system that'll sound awesome in either a small room or a large room. To my ear, there's nothing worst that a system where you can pick out the sound coming from each individual driver. As a point of reference, in my smallish room, I have 4 Odyssey Lorelei's, the front 40" from the front wall & 22" from the walls,, and 1 set of Usher x-616 centers, front/rear. I not only don't feel constricted by all this hardware but in fact my Lorelei's disappear all too well,,, in fact. My soundstage sounds like it's coming from the 3rd dimension it's so damn deep.

There's no issue with a small room that can't be dealt with so to make it a killer setup. My $.02. 


Cheers,
Robin

[DaveC113]

I didn't say it's impossible to get good sound in a smaller room, just that a larger room sounds better, in general. I guess peoples definition of "small" is subjective, but for me under 150 sq ft is small... and I'd be surprised if very many people think that a space that small isn't a disadvantage. I have always thought my systems sounded better in bigger rooms, although I doubt I've ever had a room over 400 sq ft or so. 

There's no issue with a small room that can't be dealt with... 

I certainly disagree here... there are issues, such as reflection arrival times that can't be changed...

Dave

[JimJ]

I know I'd rather have a large room...anything I put in the 2nd floor of my folks' place sounds amazing, while my apartment is an acoustic turd, comparatively

The smallest room I was in was probably the dorms, at 11x15 or so...although at that point I wasn't really concerned about imaging, as getting enough sound for weekend-long beer pong tournaments

[DavidS]

a number of thoughts:

I have my small room (11x12) and fortunately have a great larger room - like a bowling alley 18x32 with lots of window treatment.  The sound difference between the two rooms is amazing and admit I have surrendered - all my good gear has gone back to the big room where I share uses but I get sound that just amazes me.  I just want 75% of that in my small room.

I am still surprised no one markets to small rooms.  We are going the way of Asia and Europe in terms of our living spaces and big Wilson Watt Puppys just won't fit in our future small rooms.  I am definately thinking smaller single driver with tube integrated but pretty much anything full range I have tried in my room either hurts after 30 minutes of listening or is a waste of good gear when I put it in my big room.

I would love someone to write a one year cycle of articles on finding great sound in a small room (Srajan, Positive Sound, Dagogo guys).  Could you spend mega bucks and find state of the art in a small room.  Could you live on a budget and have great sound in a small room.  Based upon my experience I have no idea - I am beginning to think my 11x12 is a lost cause - but think this would make for fascinating reading for many of us who are trying to figure out great sound in a small room.  Just like Affordable Audio does affordable hifi, maybe there is a future niche for Great Small Room Audio (no not proposing another circle)

Yep - definately need to spend some time learning about room treatment - just have this great room in a 1920's craftsman house, hardwood floors, turn of the century restored antique military oak desk, red walls with white original window and baseboard trim, fireplace, french doors, and I'm going hang foam on my walls - yep

Bluemike - have been watching your speakers.  Can't believe they haven't sold for you.  If I built speakers for a living I would like my speakers to be like Tonian's.  Would like to hear them but think my path is more Omega, or other single driver speaker.

This is becoming a pet topic for me because I haven't figured it out yet.  Appreciate the good discussion.  Thanks.

David

[Zero]

DavidS,

Scary though as this may sound - my main listening space is around the same dimensions you mention above. I've chosen this intimate space over larger rooms simply because, well, it sounds good. The combination wood furniture, carpeting, and acoustic treatments in the room hit a nice balance between damping/reflection. The heavy furniture really help tame those nasty bass nodes. While I am obviously compromised by the type of loudspeakers I can enjoy in this space, I am perfectly content with the options I have to work with; namely compact monitors or slim line towers - usually of the two-way variety. I have yet to meet the acquaintance of a fair young full ranger.

That said, physical size alone is not a bona fide indicator on whether or not something will work in your small space. While the formula of >the more air a speaker moves, the more space it needs> certainly has relevance in many scenario's - I've found that the key to successfully pulling off an excellent sounding system has more to do with a speakers early dispersion pattern. I've found this paramount to enjoying a very balanced near field experience.

When it all comes together, you can achieve a wonderful sense of immediacy and involvement that can be positively addicting. Although the physical size of the room and consequent variables that go along with it may not be ideal for recreating the sense of scale and feel of a live performance (particularly of the full-scale orchestra variety) - you can get pretty darn close with lighter material. 

Perhaps I've adjusted to my living conditions and choices; but I truly hope that in the future, I will be spoiled enough to have the opportunity to dedicate one small room to audio whenever I move to a new home.

[JLM]

Good topic, valid concern.  I'm thinking that in another 10 years I'll be down sizing too.

At this time, (being a single driver speaker fan/owner) I'd look in that direction, but wouldn't rule out 2-ways.  One advantage of the single drivers is the high frequency beaming that will help reduce room effects.  And I'd plan on giving up frequencies below say 40 - 60 Hz.  Standmounts are big enough to go that low and can be raised or lowered (more important in a small room to get the height right).  Nearfield listening is a given in a room this small as both speakers and listener should be away from walls.

I'd try an asymetrical layout.  Keep speakers equal distance from you the listener, but skew the triangle they form to the room in order to break up mid/high frequency reflections.  Absorption panels can be lithographed and framed for improved asthestics.

Obviously you won't need as much power in the smaller room.  I'd guess you'll pick up about 4 - 5 dB going from the 18 x 32 room.  And with less bass output, you'll relieve the amp of much more load than that.

The ACI Sapphires are tempting, but would leave nothing for a new amp.  Do you really need a new amp?

[bluemike]

David all the best
For those that have heard my speakers they would say they sound more like a full range speaker than a 2 way

The bass doesn't go down all the way but it has a very wide spectrum

Omega's are great speakers and great value.

Good luck
P.S you can acheive great sound in a small room if you plan it out carefully 

[fsimms]

The speakers are the main thing that is important.  At your price, I don't think you can do better than the Salk SongTowers.  They can be near the wall and have a small footprint.  The SongTowers have a tight transmission line bass and don't excite room resonances and go low enough to not need a sub.  The vocal performance and imaging are world class.  They are $1495 but there is a $1395 version with a different tweeter.  Since they are floor standers, you won't need to buy stands.   This leaves $600 left for the amp.  They are efficient so almost any amp would do.

This picture shows them without the grills.



PS.  Reflections from the side walls can destroy the image.  Think about adding something like a plant on one wall and maybe a light colored tapestry on the other.  With the transmission line, you won't need to have thick sound panels.

[Scott F.]

David,

Man, this is strange that you bring this subject up. I've been seriously thinking about starting a series of articles over at EnjoyTheMusic on this exact subject. Do to a major highway shut down in St Louis, I've begun tele-commuting about 50% of the time at my real job. In turn, I took my old 'Grape Room' and converted it onto a home office. The room dimensions are 9x11, nearly the same as yours.

Here are some (not so spiffy) pics of the room to give you an idea of what I did.

The Headwall


The Backwall

(sorry about the fuzzy pics, I haven't done a formal 'shoot' yet)

Like you, I'm doing this room with ZERO treatments. Not because I  don't want to, I simply can't without overwhelming the room and making it look too cramped.

I'm using the Odyssey Epiphany's as speakers. They have great off axis dispersion and imaging. You are going to need that as you will definitely loose your sweet spot in an office configuration. The amp pictured is the Primaluna Prologue II. It's really too much amp for the room. Previously I had the little factory modified JoLida 102b in here. It was super sweet with ample wattage at 25wpc. Next up in the room is the Opera Cyber 10 Multifunction KT88 SET.

Now, sources. Well, I thought about doing my SB with a DAC but honestly, I thought why? Since my computer is in the same room, I could feed a USB DAC (or in the case of the Opera Cyber 10, it has an onboard USB DAC). I've started playing with the Trends 10.1 and the MHDT DAC's and also the DAC 707 Super Pro (see pic below). Using Foobar/ASIO as the music player and feeding these combo's, I'm getting some damned fine sounds. Nearly as good as when the room was set up as a dedicated listening room. Sure, I've lost some of the depth of stage and that perfect placement of the performers but I still get a very reasonable soundstage with OK placement.

The single biggest issue here is that I want....no need my music. In all my years working, I've always had music playing in the background, regardless of where I was. If I couldn't have a minisystem, I used headphones (anybody remember the Bone-Phones from the Home Shopping Network circa 1985?).

The other great thing about Foobar is it has a built in EQ (yes I said EQ.....RUN FOR COVER!). The great thing about this EQ is it is all done in the digital domain. It allows you to trim back some of the bass buildups you will experience from sitting in a node in an untreated room.

When it comes to amps, think small wattage. With 86db speakers and sitting nearfield, I doubt seriously I even use more than 5 or 8 watts (I sit 5' from the closest speaker).

I know you may not want to consider this but give it a thought or two. Why not sell your SB and AN DAC? Reason I say this is, like the Cyber 10 (and a growing number of others), I personally think that more and more amps will be offered with onboard USB DAC's. Lets face it, what you are thinking about and what I've done is going to be the future of audio. Not to mention, it is a lifestyle thing for many, many people. They will want a completely integrated amp that interfaces with their computer (used as a music server). They may tolerate a small external DAC like that little 70 Super DAC (which sounds pretty damned good for $110 BTW).



DAC707 Super Pro USB



Lots to think about. Bottom line is you can downsize, do it in a small room, without sacrificing good sound.



Here is a link to the little Opera Cyber10 I wrote a few months back.


Cyber 10 Article

[fsimms]

Like you, I'm doing this room with ZERO treatments. Not because I  don't want to, I simply can't without overwhelming the room and making it look too cramped.

You may have more sound treatments than you realize.  You have that window and if it has blinds then one wall is fixed.  On the back wall you have plants.  The other wall is not shown.  If you have a door(open) or maybe a bookcase then you may have that fixed too!

[nrenter]

I think a series of articles on small-room systems is a great idea. It is often conveyed that if you do not have the "perfect" space (or the "best" equipment) you're condemned to a life of mediocre sound (at best) and most likely absolute crap.

If I may quote from another thread...

Its rooms like this that give audio a bad reputation.  IMO the room is more important than amp, pre-amp, even the source (gasp heresy!).  You're wrestling with a pig here, this room doesn't "deserve" nice equipment.  You'll get one note bass boom, crummy imaging depth with the big window between the speakers, and I'm not sure where you'll sit to listen if a desk goes opposite the window/speakers.

I'd be thinking hard about using headphones for critical listening and smaller/less expensive speakers with a 60 - 80 Hz cut-off that could move later on into a HT system for casual listening.  High-end audio in this room would an excercise in fustration.

I'd glad I didn't listen to this "advice", as I'll take my "bass boom" and "crummy imaging depth" from my system / room over many "ideal" setups that I've heard over the years.

[*Scotty*]

DavidS, What equipment do you currently have and what has made it back into the big room?
How do you feel about building a small set of speakers from a kit, you might be able to achieve superior performance from a kit you build your self
compared to the same amount money spent on ready built speakers.
Scotty

[DavidS]

I think everyone agrees that we are constrained in the type of speaker that will be successful in our small space.  Not sure I understand what that is though - is it driver size (less than 6 inches is better for example), is it number of drivers, is it design type (no rear firing ports or radiation patterns of single driver speakers work best, etc.), or is it keep bass to 40/50/60 and up.  Would love a pair of refurbished Quads but pretty much know this is not going to work in my small room.

Scott - I thought the Micropure Kotaro was an interesting speaker that Enjoy the Music reviewed that I might consider for my room.  But not even sure if small is what I am looking for a small room (I am 6'5 230 so even I don't fit my small space all that well).

I also think the series on Great Audio in a Small Room is a good idea - one I would be a regular reader for.  First season could be series of 10 articles on building great audio in a small room on a budget.  Second season could be same thing but cost no object.  Third season could be tweaking your system in a small room - see have two three years worth of articles all laid out for you!  Too bad audio writers didn't have the budgets of home decorating tv show divas.

[buzzy]

I know there's already a series on nearfield listening, and the two photos above are (interestingly) not such a setup - but my instinct is that going nearfield or moving in that direction help a great deal - eg, far less impact from reflections.  Maybe it's not a topic you had in mind, but to some degree placement discussions could be interesting and a useful tool for small rooms.