[lonewolfny42]

Hello Leroy...

Please keep in mind that I am only asking for the speaker technology that sounds the most realistic, and not for a speaker company or a speaker itself, as I think that that would be impossible for anyone to say.

[TerryO]

Hello Leroy...

Please keep in mind that I am only asking for the speaker technology that sounds the most realistic, and not for a speaker company or a speaker itself, as I think that that would be impossible for anyone to say.

Obviously it's not impossible for anyone (including myself!) to say aa However, the question as to which speaker technology sounds the most realistic, is actually the impossible question, as it depends on implementation more than the actual technology. My previous recommendations were made on the basis of price and realistic, true to life sound and utilize different technologies from each other.

Best Regards,
TerryO

[doug s.]

Hello Leroy...

Please keep in mind that I am only asking for the speaker technology that sounds the most realistic, and not for a speaker company or a speaker itself, as I think that that would be impossible for anyone to say.

good point, lonewolf!   

myself, i have heard many types of speakers, & have "faves" that are of many different types.  but, if it were my unlimited budget, (considering i shop used, $10k would pretty-much put me in the unlimited range), i think the most realistic sound you will find will come from either front-facing horns or line arrays - that's where i'd be looking.  of course, if i had that kinda budget, i would also have the proper room - i discovered a while back that a room ~26x38 is about right...   aa  i used to have a room like that, open to two other spaces about as large - even two-way mini-monitors w/an active subwoofer system sounded amazing in that room.  (of course, an active subwoofer system is a given for me, as well...)

ymmv,

doug s.

[nodiak]

Consider buying a ~ $2000 used/new pair of speakers that are popular and will have good resale (you probably have seen or heard some that have attracted your attention). Live with them a few weeks or so and then discover what they do and don't do for you. Then come back and ask what others would recommend based on your experience with that speaker and what more you want, with a bigger budget. I think this is a good idea because it's unlikely you'll get it right the first time. Sell 'em and take another shot at it.
I agree with doug s. about a powered sub (breaking a rule here but at least look at Rythmik sub kits.)
Good luck, Don

[lonewolfny42]

Consider buying a ~ $2000 used/new pair of speakers that are popular and will have good resale (you probably have seen or heard some that have attracted your attention). Live with them a few weeks or so and then discover what they do and don't do for you. Then come back and ask what others would recommend based on your experience with that speaker and what more you want, with a bigger budget. I think this is a good idea because it's unlikely you'll get it right the first time. Sell 'em and take another shot at it.
I agree with doug s. about a powered sub (breaking a rule here but at least look at Rythmik sub kits.)
Good luck, Don

If you check Leroy's past post history, you'll see what he has tried....a few good speakers, and other equipment. In fact there is a pair of speakers for sale by him now....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49386.0

Leroy....Since you are close to NYC (N.J.)...I'd suggest a visit to a few audio stores there....to hear different speakers...and get some ideas...

[SET Man]

Hello Leroy...

Please keep in mind that I am only asking for the speaker technology that sounds the most realistic, and not for a speaker company or a speaker itself, as I think that that would be impossible for anyone to say.

Hey!

     Leroy. I think you are basically asking for a "PERFECT SPEAKER" I'm sorry to say that it doesn't exist 

     As for one single perfect speaker tech... well that doesn't exist either  Every speaker system have compromise(s) some have more than others. And what's realistic to some might not be to others.

     First I must say that you are blessed with budget that I could only dream of. So, with this you will have more options.

     But to find speaker you and only you can live with you have to ask yourself a few questions. I will use myself as an example.

     I'm currently using DIY Single Driver Speaker without xover... OK maybe 1.5 way since I do have a super/helper tweeter  I've never thought that I would ended up with Single Driver speaker until I ran into RL Acoustique's Lam horn at the audio show in NYC in 2001. Immediately I fell something very special about the sound. Thus that lead me to built my own pair but in mid 2002 and I've been using it ever since. Before that I used to have Magnepan 1.5 believe it or not

    After a few months with my home brew Single Driver I realized and came to conclusion of why I like Single Driver.

     Here are my criteria of what I'm looking for in speaker.

1. Tonality.  Well, it doesn't matter how many drivers, size, type or price of speaker you are listening to. If the tone or overall tonality is not right than it is just junk to me.

2. Coherency. This is probably why I like single driver and still use it today. There is something about it that I can't really explain. When you hear a female vocal or acoustic instruments with range that would be separated in multi-way speaker through a single speaker without any xover, it is just magic to me.... very very intimate and a complete feel to it.

3. Dynamic and efficiency. This I believe go together hand and hand. I need hi-ef speaker for low power SET amp. And most of the time hi-ef speaker tend to have a better dynamic and faster respond than lower one.

Less critical for me....

4. Frequency range. True that 20hz to 20Khz and beyond would be nice but if it ain't got above three criteria than it ain't mean a thing to me.

5. SPL playback. OK, it would be nice to be able to play Telarc's 1812 at realistic level. But who the hell listen to music at that level all the time? So, this again is less important for me. I think as long as I could get 100dB at my sweet spot cleanly I'm OK with that. Well, surprisingly my 6" Single Driver Fostex could do that.... thanks to Levi who cracked my system up 100+dB at one of my Mini-Rave. I had no idea my speaker could do that on those tracks!

    Anyway, as you can see this will not fit or for everyone.For example if you like to play music at very high SPL with big room than Single Driver might not be for you. Or you want speaker with wide respond than again this might not be for you (Although some Single Driver speaker does come very close) I love my system right now, but who's know? It could sound like shit to some 

   So, ask yourself what you want from speaker, what you value most in sound and what compromises you could live with. Than go out and hear all the speakers that could get a hold off. Check to see if you there any near by AC members and see if you could stop by or go to audio shows and etc.

   You best bet is to believe your own ears.

   Well, good luck and keep us posted.

Take care,
Buddy

[JimJ]

Every speaker system have compromise(s) some have more than others. And what's realistic to some might not be to others.

Indeed. I've noticed this even demo'ing subwoofers to people, some people really love a very linear BL design such as an XBL^2 woofer whereas some people can't stand that sound, and prefer a traditional underhung...even though the XBL^2 is on paper a "better" driver from a distortion standpoint.

[Duke]

Leroy,

Over on another board I gave a sort of generic overview answer, but I've thought about it a bit and so will give you a more specific answer here.

What I'm going to describe is not a loudspeaker technology; rather, it is a psychoacoustics-based loudspeaker philosophy.

Let's start by looking at what happens in a good recital hall (subsitute jazz club or symphonic hall as you wish).   You have a nice clean coherent first-arrival sound, with some early reflections off the upper torsos of the people in front of you (but in general people are fairly absorptive, especially plump middle-aged Americans).  Then there will be a fairly long delay - maybe 20 or more milliseconds - before the onset of the first significant reflections.  Once these reflections start to arrive, they set up a very well-energized and diffuse reverberant field that decays fairly slowly.  The reverberant energy coming from the sides in particular imparts a sense of richness and spaciousness and envelopment that is the hallmark of a good, ahem, hall.  (Note also that pinpoint imaging is not what we normally experience in a concert hall.)  The ear finds a late-arriving, well-energized, diffuse, spectrally correct (neither too bright nor too dull) reverberant field to be psychoacoustically very pleasing. 

I believe that one of the main differences between the sound of a good stereo system and the sound of a live performance is the nature of the reverberant field.  In a typical home listening room, the reverberant energy starts to arrive too soon and is too weak and decays too quickly (all this relative to the concert hall experience).  In addition, the spectral balance of the reverberant energy is typically significantly different from that of the first-arrival sound in the home.  While there is some spectral difference in the reverberant energy in a concert hall as well, it is the result of the room's natural acoustics rather than a consequence of loudspeaker radiation pattern anomalies. 

Assuming the foregoing analysis is in the ballpark, we can take a step in the direction of a more realistic-sounding speaker by attempting to replicate the sound-field characteristics of a live performance.   Briefly, what we want is a speaker (and set-up) that gives us a lot of late-arriving, spectrally correct reverberant energy.  This can be accomplished with appropriately designed dipoles, bipoles, omnis, quasi-omnis, or polydirectionals, as well as exceptionally wide, uniform patterned monopoles.  I can go into more detail about the specific requirements, but like I said it's a philosophy rather than a technology.  And note that if not set up correctly, speakers that are consistent with this reverberant-field-conscious philosophy will probably sound less realistic than a comparable conventional speaker.

Duke

[jimdgoulding]

What Duke says.  Whoever that wise soul may be. 

I listen with monopoles in a modest size room.  Think of your room as a component to your end game.  Cause if you listen in a modest size room, most particularly, it is.  I’ve had three listening rooms in my history and owned bi-poles, monopoles, and, euphemistically, no poles cause their drivers were mounted in free space with very little baffle reinforcement. 

I know you have heard the term synergy.  That should include the room you are going to set up in.  Not only that, but what’s in it.  Less is more.  Some guys use various wall and/or corner treatments.  Ceiling, too.  In a difficult room or with very large speakers I can imagine that this is useful.  The only thing I concern myself with is the very earliest reflection cause of the damage it can do to absolute time and phase.  Translation, faithfulness to the recorded event, exactness, simply put.  Sound waveform late arrival is OK from where I sit.  Literally and figuratively.  They just need to marry direct time seamlessly.  This can be achieved with speaker placement.  It’s takes a little experimentation. 

If you are going to listen in a modest size room, go for dynamic speaker designs (I would in any case for wide and full dynamics and visual retraction).  Two ways, preferably, cause their drivers are close together and more likely to create a point source in the near field.  Were I someone who wants to create an in room realization of a recorded event from the ground up and who has a modest size room to begin with (in any case, perhaps), I would encourage the experience of AC members Russell Dawkins (who uses speakers that fit this description to monitor the commercial recordings he makes), Lonewolfny42 (who uses the same for listening amongst several), and his crime partner, Double Ugly (what his wife calls him), and the Frat of Sat (Satfrat), all kindred souls.  Those are the ones with whom I am most familiar (don’t mean to leave anyone out).  If you decide on speakers with surface mounted high frequency drivers (not all are . . a very few are recessed for uniform time arrival with their other drivers)- and I must admit here than I am fascinated by single driver designs but have no practical experience (Zu, for example, for the size of my room)- you, and every other AC member in a state of denial, should visit my website for the next best thing. 

All the best.  And know that knowledge is so much valuable than money where it really matters.  That’s from fruitful experience.  Talk to those guys.  Duke, regards.  Jim

[ferenc_k]

If you want a speaker which has the coherency of a single way speaker, the dynamism of a horn speaker, the control of a sealed box speaker, the bass which will not boom in your room, but there is an extension down to the 30s, can be as loud as a real live concert, but smooth enough for a late night listening session in you room, if you want a speaker which is sensitive enough to work with a 2W triode tube amp but construction controls the bass speaker excitement like an SS amp with above 1000 damping factor, do not look further.

Get a Danley SH 100B. You need a very tolerant wife however.

Pro speaker for PA duties but with several inventions and patent of Thomas Danley. Even the fully active, DSP'd version with 6 amps inside, can be yours for roughly 10k. The passive is much cheaper.

If you need more dynamics, more resolution, really holograhic imaging and coherency, rhythm playing capability like nothing else, get a Danley SH 50. Bass is down around 50 Hz, but what bass! However you need even more tolerant wife and stand can be a problem as well plus you need at least 60-70 sqm room. Undistitorted plus 120 dB in your seat will not be a problem.

The Danley speakers are for PA eg live music. No speaker will take you closer to the live music feeling and experience if it is your ultimate goal. I know, I have both the SH 50 and the SH 100B. I changed from an Avantgarde Trio after living with it for some 8 years. You just have to get rid of your preconception. The hifi speakers let you imagine the original live event if you are lucky. The Danley give you the live exeprience without having to imagine it.

At least for me. YMMV of course.

[jimdgoulding]

Ferenc-  Just happen to scroll the contents and saw your quick reply.  Man, wanta to say hey to a man with this much attitude!  Do carry on with your bad self!!

[JLM]

Another interesting option: http://www.horninghybrid.com/

Efficient, dynamic, detailed, very good coherency from a single wide range driver, good frequency extension, reasonably sized, with models in and near your price range.  I like that they've stripped the Lowther (on the bigger models in your price range) of their two biggest weaknesses, the whizzer and pushing their "comfortable" frequency range limits.  I also like seeing large magnets on all the drivers, to put a strong grip onto the cones for better control.  Efficiency with horn loading allows for choice of amp, high spls, and extreme dynamics.  The directionally discernible frequencies are handled by two closely placed drivers for optimal coherency.

For residentally sized spaces slow roll off bass response around 30 Hz is ideal to complement room gain.  IMO dipoles (planars/open baffles) or arrays cannot image properly or match what is heard by the recording engineer (we are dependent upon their skills/interpetations).

As mentioned above I'd invest a big chunk of your budget into first making sure the room warrants an expensive setup.  Just having a dedicated room is huge.  Having it insulated is another huge step.  And proportion/size does matter (bigger the better).  My apologies if you're already maxed on the room.

Secondly I'd invest in travel or better yet shipping costs for auditions (hopefully at home).

Good hunting.  Let us know what you end up with.

[BrianM]

BrianM, I think 20Hz extension comes into it's own when the recorded performance takes place in a real space. Most venues are a lot larger than ones living room and have a long reverberation time which corresponds to a very low resonant frequency which is excited by the performance. This is part of the spacial characteristics of the recording.
When you can properly reproduce this, the sense of realism is greatly enhanced. Clean, low distortion reproduction of low frequencies is also a bonus if your system is involved with reproducing movie soundtracks in a combined AV system.
Speaking from personal experience, I wouldn't want to have a system without this sort of low frequency capability.

I don't disagree, all things being ideal, but basically, what JLM said:

For residentally sized spaces slow roll off bass response around 30 Hz is ideal to complement room gain.

[BrianM]

Incidentally, the guy posted here because he was "confused" and I seriously doubt that's been remedied much.  However the fault lies in the way the question was posed...

Leroy, like many people, if you're not already suffering from choice overload (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice_overload) you soon will be.  I don't want to wax sociological, but being presented with too many choices is a demotivating factor and a rather big problem these days.  In my opinion the differences between competing loudspeaker designs tend to be exaggerated.  I think you should shop for new speakers the way you'd shop for a new car.  If you're really into driving you're going to pick among several great models, but you ought to have the perspective to realize you could be happy with any one of them.  If you set out to find the "perfect" "best" car you'd just be acting delusional and rather spoiled.  Thus, any of the above-mentioned speakers would probably be more or less equally satisfactory.  Make it your mission to audition, say, around 4 or 5 well-regarded brands, then pick the one that gives you the best customer satisfaction feelings.  That includes buying from someone you'd like doing business with.  But don't imagine you can settle on the "most realistic" speaker technology.  All of the speakers mentioned are no doubt very realistic.

[Double Ugly]

What Duke says.  Whoever that wise soul may be.

----------  BREAK  ----------

Were I someone who wants to create an in room realization of a recorded event from the ground up and who has a modest size room to begin with (in any case, perhaps), I would encourage the experience of AC members Russell Dawkins (who uses speakers that fit this description to monitor the commercial recordings he makes), Lonewolfny42 (who uses the same for listening amongst several), and his crime partner, Double Ugly (what his wife calls him), and the Frat of Sat (Satfrat), all kindred souls.

3 of the 4 you mention own SP Technology speakers, a brand Duke claims to hold in high regard.  Perhaps one of the new Timepiece Minis has found their way to a location accessible to you, Leroy.

Oh yeah... and my wife has requested an audience with you, Mr. Goulding. 

[Geardaddy]

LeroyC33, I think you have been given a lot of good advice here.  Its a good question to ask in that it exposes a lot of our biases (or "philosophies").  I will add me two cents:

1.  pbrstreetgang provided you with a nice overview in regards to speaker designs.  You have to ask yourself what sonic preferences you have and what speakers have captivated you in the past.  If one type of speaker design is prevalent, that is one way to narrow things down.

2.  What associated equipment do you own?  There is always that synergy thing to deal with...

3.  Your room.  Dimensions?  Also, TerryO made the point about room treatments.  It makes a significant difference.  Don't neglect that (although its more work and is why a lot of us avoid that element).

4.  Don't assume you have to spend 10K to get something stellar

5.  Going to RMAF is a good idea (however flawed the listening environment may be).  It can provide you with a feel for things.  Then try and get an in home audition...that is really key. 

6.  Don't rely on speakers threads.  Some manufacturers and their devotees are more aggressive than others in spreading their particular gospel.  This steers a lot of people towards a premature and unenlightened decision. 

6.  I agree with BrianM that the actual differences between speakers are grossly exaggerated.  The fact is that there are a lot of stellar speakers out there and we are spoiled rotten.  It is hard to make a choice in such a vast candy store.....

[fsimms]

For a cone speaker that will put the artist in the room with you at realistic volume, it is hard to beat a good Magnesium or Berilium cone.  They have the smallest distortions in the midrange.  They are also hard for speaker builders to work with so be careful.  If you go to a concert then look at the stage and you will find speakers stacked up at the sides of the stage.  Other softer materials will more likely give that "stage" sound.

[Geardaddy]

fsimms, are you an Usher devotee?

[Double Ugly]

6.  I agree with BrianM that the actual differences between speakers are grossly exaggerated.  The fact is that there are a lot of stellar speakers out there and we are spoiled rotten...

I believe the first statement is sometimes true, but I'll have to disagree with the second.

I've heard a lot of *good* speakers, but only a precious few I'd deem stellar.  It is in describing those speakers, however - the stellar speakers - that we find it difficult to avoid exaggerating the differences.

YMMV...

[BradJudy]

It's like watching people talk about women.  Someone walked in and said: "Which women are the best: brunettes, blondes or redheads?  I can't date all of them to find out."  And the responses become a mixture of "that's an impossible question" and "the type of woman I married is the best."