[LeroyC33]

OK, so maybe this is the question that I should have asked originally...

I need some help, because I am now more confused than ever.  I am in the market for new speakers, and have about $10,000 to spend, more or less.  I am looking for the most "realistic", "true-to-life", "you-are-there", quality speaker there is, at that price.  But the sheer number of speaker companies, speaker technologies, and speakers out there is mystifying, stupefying, and bewildering, so my search has been extremely confusing.  I am not a constant upgrade kind of guy, and I don't have a lot of money, and so the speakers that I buy are the ones that I have to keep for a long time, and so it is even more imperative that I make the right and wise decision.

I realize that everyone has their own different opinion of things, and that different people like different types of sound from their speakers, and that that may be their favorite whether or not the sound coming from their speakers sounds even remotely realistic at all.  And, while I respect the right for everyone to like their own particular pair of speakers that puts out a particular type of sound that suits them that they like and that sounds good to them as their favorite, regardless of whether it sounds realistic or not, my tastes are slightly different. My particular idea of good speakers are speakers that produce sound that sounds "real", or speakers that sound like a live performer is playing right there in front of you. Please forgive my particular taste, I know that a pair of speakers can sound perfectly good to someone whether or not they sound very realistic at all, but that is just what I personally in my own opinion consider good speakers, speakers which produce music which sounds as lifelike and as close to reality as possible.

And so, the first step that I am trying to do in order to nail down my speaker search is to isolate the type of speaker technology that sounds the most realistic.  Since I know that most of you have heard literally dozens and dozens more different types of speakers in your lifetime than I have, all from many different types of assorted speaker technologies, can any of you tell me what, in general, is the speaker technology or type of speaker that sounds the most realistic and true to real life, like having a live performer playing right in front of you, that sounds the most similar to that?  I know that part of this depends upon the system setup and synergy, room treatments, etc., etc., and I know that people do not always prefer the most realistic sound, but oftentimes just prefer the sound that sounds good to them, but surely, there must be some speaker technologies that sound more realistic, and more true-to-life than others.  Please keep in mind that I am only asking for the speaker technology that sounds the most realistic, and not for a speaker company or a speaker itself, as I think that that would be impossible for anyone to say.

Knowing that most of you have heard many other speakers than me, and from all different types of speaker technologies, I thought that maybe some of you guys could tell me, maybe some of you could then give me a good place to start, or at least some of the more stronger options that there are available out there in terms of true-to-life music and sounding the most realistic.

If you could please help me out with a little advice other than, "well it all depends on you, you just have to listen with your own ears, and try to find what sounds right, and decide for yourself", that would be great.  Because, unfortunately, that does not help me out much because I do not have "golden ears" as they say, and I do not even know what to listen for. Can you guys please help me out, and at least give me some places to start in terms of which speaker technology I should be looking at more than others, to get the most realistic sound?  I would really appreciate it.

Thanks to all of you for your responses, I really appreciate all of your help, and am grateful to you for any help, tips, and advice, that any of you guys can give me.  All advice is appreciated.

[miklorsmith]

Everyone's looking for the same thing - that which suspends disbelief best.  It is an extremely personal decision that NOBODY else can make for you.  If there was one *most real* speaker, there wouldn't be the variety of selections there are.

You need to figure out what you treasure in your hi-fi.  If soundstaging is your biggie, you might end up with two-way monitors and a ribbon tweeter.  If big dynamics are key, horns might be in your future.  If flat frequency response is primary, pro monitors will do that very well.  How deep do you need to go?  *Real* means 20 hz extension but that's difficult to achieve in a home environment. 

How big your room is, how loud you like to listen, what music you enjoy at what volume, domestic constraints, and other factors will steer you in one direction or another.  If you have a particular amplifier in mind, that will steer the ship too.

I hate to say it, but unless you get out and beat the streets it's going to be a big guessing game that almost certainly will not scratch your "best sound" itch.  Experience is the only elixir.  You have a nice budget that is plenty to give you what you want, only if you know what that is.  I don't know much but I am absolutely certain asking this question on audio boards will not clarify your understandings nor distill the real question you're asking which really is "what speakers do I like best".

At the very least you need to hear planars, dipoles, big multiways, 2-ways, single drivers, open baffles, and line arrays to hear what each bring to the party.  I wouldn't dream about dropping that kind of coin without having at least a strong educated forecast about performance in my room.  Buying and selling speakers can be done but you WILL lose money and it WILL suck.

[ajzepp]

My two favorite speaker companies are Magnepan and DeVore Fidelity. I value realism and transparency above all else, and both of these speaker lines have helped me in achieving that.

[pbrstreetgang]

OK, I think this is a good topic but as you might imagine ALL of our lives would be easier if there was a grand unified theory to this. To me being around a lot of speakers and fine systems the ones that draw me in and represent themselves as the most realistic are not so much able to be defined and categorized into a specific technology. A lot of times the presentation of the soundfield and my specific preference play a part in what I particularly like, however some must hears that can cut down on your search are:

1) Big Planars- Magnepans and Martin Logans (3.6, CLS, Odyssey ect- the mid models) Present great soundstaging, details, and able to make players sound real such as chesty trombones and shimmering cymbals. A downside for me is a bit too holographic and 2D not as rich and substantive- more ghostlike sonic images when compared to some other types- Great none the less.

2) Studio Monitor types- Tannoy, SP Tech, Dynaudio older JBLs - I havent heard SP Techs but all reports are glowing. These types are very detailed, dynamic and adhere more or less to a point source time aligned theory. As you may guess these have the ability of sounding real being studio monitors. A downside in general for me is that they are a bit lively and most present the soundfield into the room.

3) Open Baffle designs- RAW, Jamo, Orions, GR Research, Bastantis, Nomads and tons of DIY,  Emerald. I lean in this camp and really enjoy the presentation in the right room. Maybe a bit more relaxed than the others but this is what I prefer though. There are many different configurations here but the OB sweetness ond strengths should be present in all I listed. Downsides are of course room interaction and I think they are more of an all around real sound but most dont excel top to bottom- midrange sucks me in though.

4) Line arrays- GR, Selah, and tons of others - The sheer output, dynamics and limit of any compression are superb. My favorite all time speaker is in this camp. Downsides are size, cost and the need to sit farther away- otherwise they rarely disappoint.

5) You are probably familiar with common 2 or 3 way box speakers- While they can be as good or better than the others you can also spend your life looing for a great pair. Some swear by a particular model and other loath it. I think they can be done well but Im sure you have listened to many also

I left out single drivers as I feel there are too many compromises in terms of all around music that favors them as well as most have a tailed off top or bottom end. Support equipment and music taste play a role also. But they have midrange magic and are very intimate. Also horns as they are usually expensive and big they can sound great though- Older Altecs, Klipsch and many others. Of course all my comments are very general and my own opinions.

[Daygloworange]

Leroy,

Given that you have set a 5 figure budget for speakers (which I feel most characterizes a systems sound),
the best advice I would give you is to go to RMAF with your favorite recordings and make your choice there.

I personally value as transparent, dynamic and neutral a speaker as I can get, but having spoken to a number of audiophiles who apparently want the same qualities, they'll sometimes name a preferred speaker that I think sounds anything but that.

Be your own judge is my best advice.

Happy hunting! 

Cheers

[miklorsmith]

Except that good single drivers do tone and coherence exceedingly well.  Add supertweeter and sub - all covered.

[Parnelli777]

Used Avantgarde Duo horns. Another would be used Magnepan 20.1. Both typically under $10,000.

[pbrstreetgang]

I think that single driver comment is directed at me, I agree you can add to anything- what would we call them then? Two way box speakers with a sub? I still feel there are compromises with that including dynamics and compression on large scale music. Zus would be of interest to the OP here if he prefers single driver like speakers with a supertweeter and possibly a sub. Though I dont think they do very well compared to the others in certain areas of imaging and staging.

The 20.1s are a great recommendation! The Avanguardes are a great speaker too but may be an acquired taste.

[cliffy]

Don't forget to add VMPS to your list.


http://vmpsaudio.com/RMV60.htm

[Crimson]

I like speakers from Magnepan, Sound Lab, Vandersteen, Totem, and Gallo. Hope that helps.

All joking aside, what's your current preference? What kind of music do you prefer? That may help in narrowing the field, but let your ears be your judge.

[Les Lammers]

What are you going to drive them with? How big is your room? If you are going to spend 10K I'd drive somewhere and listen. Do remember that the speakers will sound different in you room. I use PHY HP single drivers but the Devore 9's look really interesting.

[JimJ]

Experience is the only elixir.

QFT.

That's why this hobby never gets boring...there's always something new to listen to, always something that the other guy has that you don't that may just be the sound that floors you

[*Scotty*]

LeroyC33, If I was in the market again, and had 10 grand to spend I would first figure out what what qualities I expected from my system. In other words what defines real to me. For myself I want the largest soundstage with the most most dynamic presentation I can get. Within those two parameters I also desire pinpoint imaging,tonal accuracy and 20Hz to 20kHz frequency extension. The level of detail presented should be consistent with real life. If an acoustic jazz recording is close miked and not hot for some reason it should sound like you are there. I expect a speaker to be a chameleon as much possible and not editorialize. One other final criteria, the speaker should disappear. When a single loudspeaker of a pair is listened to it should like a region of space with sound coming out of it there should be no hint that the sound has a mechanical origin. If this last criteria is not fully met a realistic illusion is not possible. These are some of the criteria I apply to loudspeakers, most of them fall short in one area or another. I have been pretty happy with dynamic cone loudspeakers covering the mid-range and bass with planer magnetic tweeters.
Scotty


   

[BrianM]

I frankly think it's a mistake to plan on spending $10,000.  Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's very conceivable that you'd be perfectly delighted with one of several speakers costing around half that.  Whereas if you know you have $10,000 in hand, you're pretty much guaranteed to spend all $10,000.

It also greatly depends on your room and the electronics you'll be using.  If you found a speaker for $5 grand that just killed (and I'm fairly certain you could) then that extra $5 grand could go an awfully long way toward optimizing the front end gear.  Not to mention stocking up on music.

Also, I think the appeal of "flat to 20Hz" is overrated.

[lazydays]

assuming you have plenty of amp; then look at something like a pair of Maggies. (also assuming you have a room big enough) A pair of 3.6's probably will fill all your expectations, but they have bigger ones. But you also might want to check out the Quads and Advantguards. Must be nice to have that kind of cash on hand to buy new speakers.
gary

[miklorsmith]

I think that single driver comment is directed at me, I agree you can add to anything- what would we call them then? Two way box speakers with a sub? I still feel there are compromises with that including dynamics and compression on large scale music. Zus would be of interest to the OP here if he prefers single driver like speakers with a supertweeter and possibly a sub. Though I dont think they do very well compared to the others in certain areas of imaging and staging.

No, if the "main" driver is covering say 100 hz to 5 khz (for example) it is much more than the commonly understood 2-way with a sub.  Your prejudice is showing.  Others would seriously disagree with you over the "imaging and staging" comment.  That is my whole point - we are a many-feathered flock.

[lazydays]

just to further add to my post, If it were me I think I'd order a pair of 3.6 Maggies with the Mye stands. Then take the rest of the cash on hand and order a pair on Mono SE's from Klaus Bunge just to make sure you can drive them.
Buyer beware that the sound that comes out of these speakers is huge, and may cause damage to the hair on the back of your head! A friend of mine who happens to be a professional keyboard palyer in a couple jazz quintets ordered a pair after listening to them for twenty minutes playing his own music. The only otherthing I have not mentioned is that maybe you could find a pair of mint condition Meadowlark Blue Herons, and opt for a hundred watts of nice tube amp.
gary

[TerryO]

I'm pretty lucky to have heard a number of high-end systems as well as a couple of acknowledged World-Class systems. For a $10K speaker budget you are in a position to have a system that can rival just about any.

However, you must place your speakers in an acoustically treated room. In my experience, a $5K "system" in an acoustically treated room will almost always sound better than any $50K system in a typical room.

My recommendation for speakers is the "Vivaldi" (www.vivaldiaudio.com), a superb sounding speaker that is, as a bonus, pure eye-candy. The cost of these will allow you to treat your room about as well as can be done and still stay within your budget.

A less costly recommendation, which gives up some of the dynamics of the Vivaldi as well as a bit of "air," are the Harbeth speakers.

Either one is capable of re-creating music in a manner that few speakers at any cost can achieve.
This is, of course, just my opinion but you should make every attempt to audition these before purchasing any speakers. I'll bet you won't be sorry.

Best Regards,
TerryO

[pbrstreetgang]

I think that single driver comment is directed at me, I agree you can add to anything- what would we call them then? Two way box speakers with a sub? I still feel there are compromises with that including dynamics and compression on large scale music. Zus would be of interest to the OP here if he prefers single driver like speakers with a supertweeter and possibly a sub. Though I dont think they do very well compared to the others in certain areas of imaging and staging.

No, if the "main" driver is covering say 100 hz to 5 khz (for example) it is much more than the commonly understood 2-way with a sub.  Your prejudice is showing.  Others would seriously disagree with you over the "imaging and staging" comment.  That is my whole point - we are a many-feathered flock.

Please dont make assumptions about my preference, I dont dislike wideband drivers at all(seemingly what you are actually advocating). I have and wont get rid of Triangles with a "wideband" midrange and a tweeter crossing over at 6K. There is a reason its augmented with a tweeter on one end and a sub on the other- it makes compromises on both ends as well as with output capability in order to have a single driver cover much of the audio spectrum. Compromises I wouldnt suggest to someone looking for the most "realistic" speakers and 10K to spend.

Others would seriously disagree with you over the "imaging and staging" comment.  That is my whole point - we are a many-feathered flock.[quote/]



I think I answered and qualified it pretty well here "Though I don't think they do very well compared to the others in certain areas of imaging and staging."
Isn't this what provoked Zus recent "high zoot" option?

[*Scotty*]

BrianM, I think 20Hz extension comes into it's own when the recorded performance takes place in a real space. Most venues are a lot larger than ones living room and have a long reverberation time which corresponds to a very low resonant frequency which is excited by the performance. This is part of the spacial characteristics of the recording.
When you can properly reproduce this, the sense of realism is greatly enhanced. Clean, low distortion reproduction of low frequencies is also a bonus if your system is involved with reproducing movie soundtracks in a combined AV system.
Speaking from personal experience, I wouldn't want to have a system without this sort of low frequency capability.
Scotty