[brucek]

I agree.

I don't agree, and I don't agree with Phil either. Your analogies are not representative of the situation.

The situation is that Bryston always made it very clear that a prime feature of the SP1, SP1.7 and SP2 was its easy upgrade path. There was never any mention that advances in digital technology would mean they had to break that promise.

Any reasonable interpretation is that there is an implicit understanding that the upgrade path, (whether through replacement with a new unit or upgrading of the existing unit), would not be the price of a new unit minus a few dollars. That isn't in the spirit of upgradability.

I have been willing to pay the high-end prices for all my Bryston products with an understanding that the  excellent warranties and the upgradability is baked into that retail price.

Phil says: Point is don't buy digital or video electronics in particular if you're concerned about future value.. Well, normally I don't, unless the company claims that there will be an easy upgrade path, and as a result I make the decision to pay the high price for that item. I very likely would not have bought the higher priced item if the upgrade promise wasn't made.

brucek

[Phil A]

I agree and that's a good part of the reason I went with the SP1.7.  I agree that Bryston made representations.  An HDMI to multi-channel transcoder would be an easy upgrade path.  That means certain sacrifices.  Bass management probably has to be in the player and if you have an SP1.7 or SP2 your limits.  James has also indicated an outboard box is a consideration.  I don't consider that an upgrade to the existing equipment but it is an upgrade path.  I don't think an upgrade path means Bryston has to lose their shirts on a trade-in program.  I'd personally rather take a realistic trade-in from Bryston on my unit and let those that want to wait for an outboard box wait.  I have no problem with that.  It may take several months or longer to get to that outboard box.  Is your old pre/pro more obsolete over time doing that?  I think so.  Is it cheaper?  Perhaps initially it's somewhat cheaper.  Whether it is a better value in the long run is another issue.  I am disappointed by the way things transpired but happy that Bryston is apparently going to offer choices and that's all we can ask.  I was just saying that I think that those who believe unrealistic trade-in values are what they are going to get are going to likely be disappointed.

[brucek]

An HDMI to multi-channel transcoder would be an easy upgrade path. 

A terrible solution, IMO

I don't think an upgrade path means Bryston has to lose their shirts on a trade-in program.

Instead, the loyal customers should?

I paid $5500 for my SP1 and $1795 for the upgrade to an SP2. So, my all in price is $7295.

I'm certainly willing to pay the same $1795 for an upgrade/trade-in for an SP3. But you feel I should be satisfied with only receiving $2000 for my SP2? That means the SP3 will cost me $6000. What am I getting for $6K other than a couple new decoding methods and some HDMI inputs. Is that really worth $6000 to you? 

brucek

[drummermitchell]

I'm just happy Bryston was even thinking about a trade in  program.
If I had a sp2 and the SP3 was out,I'd be happy with whatever bryston would give me or sell her on the net.
My Arcam AV-8,I paid 5000,she's obsolite now and they don't even make the AV-9 anymore and they were excellent prepros.I don't think Arcam would give me anything for it.I dunno,I'm quite amazed that Bryston is working on a trade up
A couple of hundred bucks for parts,I'd be happy with that,of course that's me as I am looking forward to the SP3.Some people expect way too much for pcs. that will be dinosauric soon enough.
Todays computers,cameras, is basically obsolete as soon as you buy it.

[Phil A]

I'm just happy Bryston was even thinking about a trade in  program.
If I had a sp2 and the SP3 was out,I'd be happy with whatever bryston would give me or sell her on the net.
My Arcam AV-8,I paid 5000,she's obsolite now and they don't even make the AV-9 anymore and they were excellent prepros.I don't think Arcam would give me anything for it.I dunno,I'm quite amazed that Bryston is working on a trade up
A couple of hundred bucks for parts,I'd be happy with that,of course that's me as I am looking forward to the SP3.Some people expect way too much for pcs. that will be dinosauric soon enough.
Todays computers,cameras, is basically obsolete as soon as you buy it.

I totally agree.  It is an unreasonable explanation to keep making something into state-of-the-art at a fraction of the cost.  It's to be expected that a loyal customer will get something of reasonable value.  Reasonable value means for the lack of the hassle of selling it yourself you get a trade at a bit less than going retail.  I looked at Audiogon the other day and an SP2 was listed (not sold) for $2.6k and an SP1.7 was listed (not sold) for $1.9k.  Expecting more than market value is in my view not very realistic.  You've had the use of the item and like most audio equipment, cars, computers, etc., it depreciates and does not have the same value as you paid for it and new models are new models.  If, for example, the price is $3k for a transcoder and someone wants to put an outboard box to get HDMI audio on something worth a bit over $2k, please don't handle finances or explosives.  The device worth $2k will be worth less a year from now as will the add on box for $3k.  An $8k processor that is now used will also be worth less.  Much depends on how fast technology progresses and over time (which of course still leaves the problem of more cash upfront) it is entirely possible the $8k processor will be worth more than the 2 boxes. 

If one buys audio/video equipment with the idea of not losing lots of value (especially with digital or video) over a period of time they just are not being realistic in expecting someone else to pay the tab to bail them out of decisions made.  Citing the fact that one has been a loyal customer does not mean Bryston is solely responsible for changes in technology beyond giving some sort of upgrade path.  High end audio as a hobby is not for everyone.  One is also getting balanced inputs and a new 2-channel preamp for their money.  Without the improvements in 2-channel sound, I do not think $6k is reasonable.  My personal priority places a premium on 2-channel performance.

[drummermitchell]

A year or older can drop a pc.by 50% on the net.
Market value and with the NEW technology even more.
If I have to have it(and I will)I'll pay for it,James can I have a SP-3 for FREE ,
Thanks, a loyal Brystoneer.

[Phil A]

A year or older can drop a pc.by 50% on the net.
Market value and with the NEW technology even more.
If I have to have it(and I will)I'll pay for it,James can I have a SP-3 for FREE ,
Thanks, a loyal Brystoneer.

Exactly, James can you make that two free SP3s aa
I'll even get a Bryston tatoo for a free SP3

Seriously, depreciation/use are not Bryston's financial responsibility/burden.  We do understand some promises were made and James is trying to be reasonable to satisfy as many as possible.  I for one appreciate it.  I also don't expect an upgrade to an SP3 to be as cheap as prior upgrades.  No only to costs go up on certain things, it is a huge increase in processing power with the new formats.  The change from an SP1 was somewhat better DACs and a multi-channel input.  The change from an SP1.7 to an SP2 was better digital processing power of a smaller degree than processing to go from where an SP2 now is to an SP3.  From the SP1.7 to SP2 is kind of like going to a PC with more RAM and a better digital section on the sound card.  Going to an SP3 is like going to a whole next generation of PC.

[James Tanner]

Hi All,

We will certainly do our best to accomodate all our customers in a fair and reasonable way going forward. It is true though that the SP3 is a much more complicated and sophisticated unit that the pevious SP1.7's and SP2's.

james
 

[mv038856]

Hi All,

We will certainly do our best to accomodate all our customers in a fair and reasonable way going forward. It is true though that the SP3 is a much more complicated and sophisticated unit that the pevious SP1.7's and SP2's.

james
 

Thanks James!

I am looking forward to hear which options will be available once the SP-3 is available. Then everybody can make their individual decision.

Is Bryston making progress on the development of the SP-3? Will the Cedia EXPO see a working prototype (or even a release candidate) of the SP-3?

Chris told me on the High End in Munich in May that Bryston had hired another software specialist... 

Well, on another sibject, I think it has been discussed in this thread that the SP-3 will have some kind of room correction. I can't, however recall whether a decision had been made regarding the system. If I remember correctly, Trinnov and Audyssey have been mentioned as options. Has a decision been made in that respect? Or has Bryson (like Anthem) developed their own room correction?

Is the front and back panel design as published appr. a year ago (and shown a few messages above) still the current design? Maybe I am dreaming that one up, but wasn't there a mention that the design has changed since then?

Regarding the HDMI question(s), I am not so keen to get HDMI 1.4 (which is unlikely to be included in the SP-3 anyway), but to get a working implementation on HDMI 1.3 with fast switching times. There are implementations out there that use a single HDMI receiver per input, in contrast to a single receiver chip that 4 or 8 sources are switched to. The advantage of the one chip per input approach is that the switching unit can maintain the connections to the different devices so that it hasn't to do all the HDMI/HDCP negotiations every time an input is being switched. The result is supposed to be lightning fast switching times.

As for the USB discussion, the bandwidth of a USB 2.0 port should be more than enough to send a high quality audio signal through it. So I don't see the neccessity for USB 3.0.

Anyway, I don't expect Bryston to be the very first to implement new technologies. But I do expect Bryston to deliver exceptional audio quality and usability with the product. There is number of companies out there that throw new technology onto the market (in the media player market, I am thinking about Syabas with their Popcorn Hour devices or HDI with their Dune HD line) and release products to the public with the latest chips and/or amazing capabilities. At the same time these products, despite the cutting edge features they offer (or because of them), have shortcomings with respect to reliability or even basic functionalities.

Bryston's approach has worked well so far, for Bryston as well as its customers.

Cheers!


Markus

[lossless]

I agree.

I don't agree, and I don't agree with Phil either. Your analogies are not representative of the situation.

The situation is that Bryston always made it very clear that a prime feature of the SP1, SP1.7 and SP2 was its easy upgrade path. There was never any mention that advances in digital technology would mean they had to break that promise.

Any reasonable interpretation is that there is an implicit understanding that the upgrade path, (whether through replacement with a new unit or upgrading of the existing unit), would not be the price of a new unit minus a few dollars. That isn't in the spirit of upgradability.

I have been willing to pay the high-end prices for all my Bryston products with an understanding that the  excellent warranties and the upgradability is baked into that retail price.

Phil says: Point is don't buy digital or video electronics in particular if you're concerned about future value.. Well, normally I don't, unless the company claims that there will be an easy upgrade path, and as a result I make the decision to pay the high price for that item. I very likely would not have bought the higher priced item if the upgrade promise wasn't made.

brucek

Very well written!


...And Phil might be forgetting about one very important aspect about this, dealing directly with Bryston on this trade in program eliminates the dealer mark up.

So all I ask Bryston is please be fair to use loyal customers who wish to upgrade from the SP1/1.7/2 to the SP3.

And again please read the brucek post I quoted!

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[werd]

Hi all

quote from lessloss from above "...And Phil might be forgetting about one very important aspect about this, dealing directly with Bryston on this trade in program eliminates the dealer mark up."

I dont think this to be true, infact i can only see this being done by a dealer. It might infringe on Bryston/dealer partnership somehow. I dont know though maybe not. 

[lossless]

Hi all

quote from lessloss from above "...And Phil might be forgetting about one very important aspect about this, dealing directly with Bryston on this trade in program eliminates the dealer mark up."

I dont think this to be true, infact i can only see this being done by a dealer. It might infringe on Bryston/dealer partnership somehow. I dont know though maybe not. 

Hi Ralph, where do you think you will trade your old SP1.7 or SP2?   Bryston or James as the manufacturer does not accept trade-in.  I was informed that Trade-in if there is any, is through your authorized Bryston dealers. 

Hi James, would there be an exception to the SP3.0 or are we at the mercy of Bryston dealer channel as far as trade-in?  The reason I posted this is my local dealer does not accept trade-in like McIntosh or Krell as an example.

--Levi

I would really like to stick with Bryston (SP3), and hope it  is a real deal with the trade in.  But at this point  with the economy the way it is, I have not been as busy as last year.  I am working, but the big spenders are far & few between.  Lets keep our fingers crossed! 

SP3 will be a  'special' case and we will work something out directly with current owners of SP1.7/SP2. 

Sorry I misunderstood - when you asked me about trade ins I thought you were asking about 7B amplifiers?

james

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50270.msg638779#msg638779

...also it seems as though I can't delete my multiple posts?

[Phil A]

I don't know about Bryston's agreements with dealers.  The dealer would likely have to sell the new unit.  I'd guess that Bryston would not ask the dealer to be responsible for the value of the trade-in.  I'm sure James will read the previous post and the link it contained.  I've said that I think some appear to be unrealistic about what a manuf. can offer.  There seems to be the expectation on the part of some that every upgrade has to be in the range of what an SP1.7 to SP2 costs regardless of whether it is more complex.  Also some seem to feel that the use they have had of their current equipment is something Bryston is responsible to eat.  My point to that is just that the use of the equipment is worth something.  If someone has been using an SP1 for a couple of years and then upgraded to a SP1.7 and will own that for five years until the SP3 is out and shelled out $7k in total they somehow think that the only thing they should pay is something like a $1.5k upgrade price based on previous upgrades w/o consideration for what they have used or how more complex an SP3 will be.  I don't think that is either realistic or fair to Bryston based on the facts.  If an outboard box to upgrade costs $3.5k and they choose that route that's OK.  It will cost more I'd imagine for someone to trade and that's OK too.  At the end of the day and a few years down the road, there probably won't be tons of difference of value in relative terms between both solutions.

[rahman]

I feel for Bryston here and I continue to commend them for working on options that aim to keep all stakeholders satisfied.

In relation to the trade-in option, before people jump the gun on likely upgrade costs, an issue that probably needs to be clarified is whether an upgrader would pay the difference between trade-in value of his/her sp1/1.7/2 and the wholesale or retail price of the sp3.

In one sense, if Bryston is contemplating a factory direct trade-in path, then it makes some sense for it to be the former.

On the other hand, Bryston dealers may well be upset by this as the primary potential customers who would have been likely to buy an SP3 (i.e owners of sp1.7/2's) are, effectively, now out of the mix. This view should be qualified somewhat as, had an upgrade path existed in the first place, these customers would not have bought an SP3 (but rather the upgrade 'kit') and, in these circumstances, it would be difficult for dealers to claim lost profits on SP3 sales to these customers. In any event, I would expect Bryston dealers to be understanding of the legitimate concerns of sp1.7/2 customers in present circumstances and of Bryston in seeking to reasonably deal with these concerns and thereby maintain its excellent reputation. In the greater scheme of things, these things should matter more even if they can't be quantified. 

Anyways, I'm obviously looking forward to seeing what Bryston does here and I hope that it benefits from constructive input of forum members.

Cheers
Adrian