SP 3.0?

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nicolasb

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #40 on: 29 Mar 2008, 01:34 pm »
By structure I mean how do we price the trade-in value and how do we keep everyone (dealer , Bryston, customer) happy?

I guess that depends on how guilty you feel. :D  How many people either bought an SP2 or held off selling an SP1.7 at a good price because you told them it would be ugradeable? How much money did they lose because they believed you?

If you want to keep customers happy then I think the minimum you need to do is eliminate the financial risk of waiting for the final announcement. What that means is that you need to establish what a reasonable price is for a second-hand SP2 or SP1.7 now, and guarantee that it will still be worth at least that much (as accepted by Bryston in part-exchange for an SP3) after the SP3 comes out.

If you feel more guilty than that :) then you should fix the trade-in value at what the second hand price would have been at the time when you first started telling people that the processors would be upgradeable.

I would also strongly urge you to consider dealing with the customers directly on the upgrade deal (in exactly the same way as you already allow SP1.7s to be sent directly to Canada for upgrade rather than requiring customers to go through their national distributor). For a British customer, for example, the opportunity to acquire an SP3 at US dollar prices would be very valuable; normally we pay double what the americans do. (Literally double!)

Btw, when it comes to possible upgrades, if there's no other option then I hope you'll consider a 2-box solution: a single new HDMI (or proprietary) digital connector on the SP1.7 or SP2 and an external box which has the job of separating HDMI audio and video, passing the audio to the processor, passing through the video to an HDMI output, and possibly also switching between multiple HDMI inputs. This would at least eliminate some of the concerns about a lack of space inside the chassis and on the backplane. (Obviously this is a last resort).

Phil A

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #41 on: 29 Mar 2008, 02:23 pm »
It would be nice if there was just an HDMI pass thru and for those who wanted to run the output to either an external Bryston unit or an external HDMI distribution device that would be great.  We in the states have to suffer too with the low value of the US dollar so we have issues as well.

James Tanner

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #42 on: 29 Mar 2008, 03:14 pm »
I think the direct idea is a good one.


james

jethro

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #43 on: 29 Mar 2008, 04:24 pm »
Perhaps the second box in the two-box approach that nicolas described could be a new SPV-2 ?

Perhaps the SP-1.7/2 to 3.0 upgrade could include only one HDMI input as nicolas also suggested
and the user could either use the SPV-2 or another 3rd-party switching box. I assume that there
will be boxes of this type available. The advantage of using an SPV-2 over a 3rd party box
would be that the SP-3 could control the input on the SPV-2 using the serial port ? An SPV-2 could
also be paired with a non-upgraded SP-3 with the advantage being onscreen displays.

I assume that an HDMI-based SPV-2 would only be able to have HDMI outputs due to encryption
and the HDMI rules and therefore might be cheaper than the original SPV-1 ? It might be nice to have an
RS-232 pass-thru/repeater  on an SPV-2 so that it could be chained to an SPV-1 allowing video switching of
older formats.

MacAngus

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #44 on: 29 Mar 2008, 09:27 pm »
When I  decided to go with a Bryston I considered a used SP1.7 but thought I might as well wait and get the new SP2 and have it upgraded when HDMI format was finalized. I still hope it's possible. It does everything I need and more except for this one HD drawback. I have a few ideas I'd like to throw out there.

1. Upgrade SP2 using the 2 optical inputs space at back with 2 HDMI inputs that are each source assignable with say 2 different sources for each for a total of 4 inputs along with a 2 input HDMI hub, (similar to USB hub). If the (TI Aureus) DSP engine can handle more inputs great if not a scaled down version with 1 HDMI input and say 2 sources assignable inputs with hub. (HD-TV & HD-DVD). The new input(s) fed to the new HD chip board inside, routed to the DSP engine. An approximate cost worked out to do the upgrade.

2. Same as above for SP1/SP1.7 owners but, with new SP2 upgrade chip etc. along with HDMI upgrade. Approximate cost worked out.

3. Trade-in program to all SP owners who want new SP3. A fixed allowance for trade in on each model, SP1/1.7 & 2.

I would much rather have the option of upgrading something than just throwing it away with a trade-in, what would Bryston do with all these used processors, recycle as much as possible I'm sure but there is still allot of waste of energy even in recycling. We can't keep throwing away everything it's already starting to catch up to us environmentally. Besides when they announce the new "ULTRA" HDMI connector we will have to start all over again.

DM

nicolasb

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #45 on: 29 Mar 2008, 09:50 pm »
I think the direct idea is a good one.
You might even consider doing the same thing in the US and Canada by bypassing the dealer network and handling upgrade/trade-in deals yourselves. The trade-in will be better value for customers if they're not having to pay the dealer mark-up on their new SP3.

The dealers would derive a large indirect benefit from this in that they could point to your trade-in policy as evidence of Bryston's commitment to its customers, which would boost sales of the SP3.

CUSTOMER: "So will this SP3 be upgradeable?"

DEALER: "Too early to tell, but even if it isn't you're protected: just look at the amazing trade-in deal Bryston is giving its SP1.7 customers!"

CUSTOMER: "Wow, you're right! Okay, I'll buy one!"

From Bryston's perspective too, this is not a pure loss-making exercise, it's a sales tool.

pantone172

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #46 on: 29 Mar 2008, 09:52 pm »
I think an HDMI pass through or a 2-box solution (SPV-2) sounds good.

Bryson made a big mistake by promising the ability to upgrade. I wonder how many people purchased these units because of it. It’s now a no win situation for them.  They either loose money to make customers happy or loose customers and make money on the new units. I think we just need to accept that technology changes and move on. Bryston makes great products and technology changes. I feel they have good intentions and value all of us who purchased one of these units. Hopefully they are able to work out a solution. One thing I think we can be sure of…the new sp3 will not come with a promise of an upgrade. :green:

Phil A

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #47 on: 30 Mar 2008, 11:45 pm »
By structure I mean how do we price the trade-in value and how do we keep everyone (dealer , Bryston, customer) happy?

I guess that depends on how guilty you feel. :D  How many people either bought an SP2 or held off selling an SP1.7 at a good price because you told them it would be ugradeable? How much money did they lose because they believed you?


Here's a quote from an SP-2 (an upgraded SP1.7) ad that's on Audiogon for sale right now:[/b]"Easy Future Upgradability. We place a great premium on upgradability...after all, when you invest in a piece of equipment, it should last you a long long time. Bryston designed the SP-2 to be upgradable. Future software changes are quick and easy to implement. On the hardware side, their pin-to-pin compatible digital board topology facilitates upgrades to future formats or digital processing technologies. The SP-2s existing DAC chips can run at sample rates up to 192 kHz facilitating upgrades to accommodate future formats. It is worth noting that many manufacturers promise that their units will be upgradable for future technology. Bryston actually does it..."   These things have a habit of snowballing.  Dealers and other sellers pass the information on and before you know it there is a class action lawsuit which costs money and does nothing for the company reputation.  Pioneer had to make a big settlement on lots of DVD players.  I elected a free firmware upgrade on my old DV47A before selling it.  Samsung is getting sued right now for one of their Blu-Ray players.  It's always better to err on the side of caution when starting out.  The PMDT from Proceed made similar claims (I owned one many moons ago) about being future proof and that really cost the company big time.  The lesson to be learned is clearly indicate what can be upgraded and include things that permit the user to hook-up lots of stuff that may come out (e.g. USB input, HDMI output) so the piece has lots of utility.

James Tanner

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #48 on: 31 Mar 2008, 12:30 am »
Well I guess based on the above our only option is to come up with an upgrade path.


james


MacAngus

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #49 on: 31 Mar 2008, 01:16 am »
I think the number one problem with the SP2 design with a promise to be upgradeable was the size of the "box". There should have been reasonable space available to accommodate future updates. I am sure that won't happen with the SP3. I don't see why Bryston could not offer a 5 year guaranteed upgrade plan on the new SP3, if properly designed.
I'd also like to provide a quote from James Tanner regarding their SP2 Processor Philosophy that is on their web site:   
"Talk of the new DVD-HD and BluRay may change this issue but it appears the connector required will be the HDMI. If and when this occurs we will provide an update to our Processor."
I just want to make it clear that I think Bryston is a GREAT, "CANADIAN" company. What other company invites you to vent like this, and I know the VP is actually listening!

DM

James Tanner

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #50 on: 31 Mar 2008, 02:07 am »
Hi,

Yes I guess it comes down to how you define 'upgrade'.

I am thinking that if possible it would be good if we had a few options available. If we can add a HDMI connector and new digital HD board to the SP1.7 and SP2 that would be option 1.

Option 2 would be a separate box that communicates with the current SP-2 or SP1.7 with HDMI and HD audio capability

Option 3 would be a trade in program for the SP3.

james




Phil A

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #51 on: 31 Mar 2008, 02:12 am »
Yes - I agree - it is great to have a company that listens and makes an effort to reach out to its customers.  There are too many high end cos. that have not done this and some of them are now history.  It makes it an easy sell for future products - that's why I bought the CD player.  It also makes great advertising when someone comes over to hear the system and can also find out about the quality of the company.  I had a 4BST many moons ago and got away from Bryston as they were slow to get into home theater (and also had bought a couple of old power pacs used which I sold for a drop more than I paid for them and now I wish I had them back for the bedroom system).  Even for my bedroom system which doesn't see tons of use I may at some point end up with a smaller Bryston amp (new or used) to drive the left and right channels when I get a new rec'r (have an old Adcom 555 for now) due to the way it sounds as well as the way they make things right with their customers.

MacAngus

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #52 on: 31 Mar 2008, 02:37 am »
Hi, James

I think giving your customers the choice of the 3 options you mentioned would be best.
As far as choice #2 a separate box to communicate the new HD information to the SP sounds good you would not have to send in the unit & have to deal with a shipping to & from issue, but I think you still need a "new" port on the Processor to accommodate the high bandwith of the HD signal.

DM


Phil A

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #53 on: 31 Mar 2008, 03:07 am »
Hi, James

I think giving your customers the choice of the 3 options you mentioned would be best.
As far as choice #2 a separate box to communicate the new HD information to the SP sounds good you would not have to send in the unit & have to deal with a shipping to & from issue, but I think you still need a "new" port on the Processor to accommodate the high bandwith of the HD signal.

DM



I'm certainly not a techie - so take this with a grain of salt but I would imagine it may be possible to have the RS232 communicate to the outboard box in a similar fashion the processor communicated with the Bryston video switcher.  I'd probably opt for sending it back to them but it is not as big a deal for me as I have both a bedroom and basement system in addition to the main system and the bedroom system sits on the other side of the wall to the main system and zone 2 output of the bedroom rec'r goes into the SP1.7 I could just as easily connect it to the 14BSST and control the rec'r from the main room via the pyramid repeaters I have.  I'll be happy to have something that has an upgrade path.  It certainly takes a good deal of the anxiety out.  I'm beginning to look at projectors for the main system now with HDMI (mine is more than 6 yrs. old and does not have HDMI) and I'll like to upgrade the bedroom rec'r to in anticipation of the new formats.  My current bedroom rec'r is 7 yrs. old.  If I get a Blu-Ray player at some point in the main system it's nice to know with a distribution device I'll be able to watch it in both the main and bedroom system.  Knowing there will be some path in the main system makes it easier to start the process of acquiring some of the other stuff (otherwise I'd have to think about sell the Bryston processor and getting something else and I hate selling anything but more basic stuff as it is easier).  I'm thinking of the Pioneer 1018 rec'r (which should be out in a couple of mos.) which will have a USB input and Windows Media Audio.  So I can take zone 2 out of that an put my Zune player into the rec'r and play my lossless music on the main system or I probably can take the digital output of the rec'r and put it into my Micromega DAC I have in the bedroom and put the output of the DAC into the main system. 

rcjordin

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Re: SP 3.0? Upgrade path
« Reply #54 on: 2 Apr 2008, 01:43 am »
James,

Thank you for keeping us in the loop about the SP3.  As far as a direction for an upgrade path, you may want to consult with Lexicon.  I have owned Lexicon in the past and upgraded from the DC-1->MC1->MC12 all at very reasonable prices. 

Just my two cents.

RJ

alexone

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #55 on: 2 Apr 2008, 10:22 am »
Hi,

Yes I guess it comes down to how you define 'upgrade'.

I am thinking that if possible it would be good if we had a few options available. If we can add a HDMI connector and new digital HD board to the SP1.7 and SP2 that would be option 1.

Option 2 would be a separate box that communicates with the current SP-2 or SP1.7 with HDMI and HD audio capability

Option 3 would be a trade in program for the SP3.

james




james,

any of these options available with usb and/or  phono mc/mm ?

alex.

James Tanner

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #56 on: 2 Apr 2008, 11:02 am »
Hi,

Not sure on the USB but definitely not Phono.

james

mkaiser

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #57 on: 2 Apr 2008, 08:31 pm »
Hi James,

With the SP3 having an external power supply as well as a separate audio section would it be safe to say that it will have the same performance as the BP26. Right now i own a BP26 and am considering changing to the SP3 if i don't lose any of the great 2 channel listening i currently enjoy. I know it's still very early in the designing of the SP3 but, is it basically going to be the BP26 with an external video section?

-Mark

Toka

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #58 on: 2 Apr 2008, 08:40 pm »
I was never completely sold on the idea of an outboard power supply...seems to be that if something is properly designed, the difference will be too minor to worry about. I just hope the "pure" analog by-pass is carried over. USB input is a big "yes", too!

alexone

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #59 on: 3 Apr 2008, 06:11 am »
 
i do own both- the bp26 and the sp2. as far as i can say something about the stereo sound is that the 26 has a touch more resolution

and punch.

so i assume it has something to do with the (outboard) power supply.