SP 3.0?

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Vipers

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1640 on: 9 Apr 2012, 03:12 pm »

This is interesting though perplexing in that James has described the BP preamps as being similar in performance to the SP3 in 2-ch but providing a different presentation.  He mentioned that the BP pre-amps could be described as more forward vs. the SP3, while the being more laid-back.  My interpretation of that was that the BP preamps would come across as more intimate and lively and perhaps providing a more "toe-tapping" experience, whereas the SP3 would be more laid back and hence, being more relaxed and larger sounding, though less intimate.  Your description seems to imply that the SP3 brings more detail, is more relaxed and yet offers a greater degree of PRAT.   :scratch: 

Perhaps Vipers can share his thoughts as well.

I have to say that I agree with Alpha on the whole, when I read James comments on any difference between the BP's and SP3 I found that I was finding something all together different with the presentation differences between the 2 processors, as already mentioned I guess different systems and environments give different results.

After living with the BP26 for a couple of years and recently switching to the SP3 I agree that they are quite similar in overall presentation, they are both unmistakeably 'Bryston' in their sound but I found the SP3 to appear slightly more detailed and cleaner with greater insight into the recording, possibly slightly more forward sounding, which I personally prefer, if anything I find the BP26 more laid back, if you are only after 2ch though then I would stick with the BP26 but if, like me, you want to incorporate 2ch and movies into one system then the SP3 is deserved of all the praise it is getting, and if push came to shove for 2ch I would choose the SP3 as my prefered processor.

Ritchief

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1641 on: 10 Apr 2012, 09:12 am »
As previously stated, I agree that the SP3 is, in my opinion, marginally better than the BP26 and furthermore includes all the greatness of 2ch into multichannel. 

adprom

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1642 on: 12 Apr 2012, 12:37 pm »
Another query - what AAC sampling rates is the SP3 able to decode?

I have an issue with a device which streams online services, and passes through the AAC streams (i.e. youtube). The SP3 produces a rather glitchy sound on these sources. I am a beta tester for this manufacturer and am trying to determine where the issue lies.

Cheers,
Adam

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1643 on: 18 Apr 2012, 10:53 am »
Another query - what AAC sampling rates is the SP3 able to decode?

I have an issue with a device which streams online services, and passes through the AAC streams (i.e. youtube). The SP3 produces a rather glitchy sound on these sources. I am a beta tester for this manufacturer and am trying to determine where the issue lies.

Cheers,
Adam

Hi Adam

Can you email me  jamestanner@bryston.com and I will pass this to Stan our SP3 engineer.

James

James Tanner

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1644 on: 18 Apr 2012, 10:55 am »
Hi Folks

Should have a PDF of the Stereophile Part 1 review this week so email me at jamestanner@bryston.com if you want a copy.

James

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1645 on: 20 Apr 2012, 08:07 pm »
Hi Folks,

PDF link of the SP-3 Stereophile Review - Part 1

Ignore the security warning

https://bryston.com/PDFs/SP3.pdf

james

Levi

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1646 on: 21 Apr 2012, 01:56 am »
I read the article.  Congrats James!  Great review of the SP-3!

klao

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1647 on: 21 Apr 2012, 06:00 am »
James,

Congrats on very nice review.  Kal's opinions are highly regarded by me (& I'm sure by many others).

As for the 2-channel analogue circuity in SP-3, which I presume similar to BP-26, is not fully balanced, is it?

Thanks,
Klao

Vipers

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1648 on: 21 Apr 2012, 09:30 am »
Excellent article James, you must be a happy chappy, looking forward to PT2, After reading comments like -

'This was the first time in a very long time that I had enjoyed convincing multi channel high resolution sound without digital processing, chalk it up to the excellent analog signals provided by the Oppo, but also, in no small measure to the Brystons SP3 utterly transperent sound'

I feel I should explore using the multichannel outputs a little more from my Oppo 95, I know when I used to have my Pioneer Susano I much preferred the Oppo doing the decoding but since I got the SP3 I have been more than happy with it's performance over HDMI, time to have a play I feel, maybe I'm missing a trick here :roll:

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1649 on: 21 Apr 2012, 10:55 am »
James,

Congrats on very nice review.  Kal's opinions are highly regarded by me (& I'm sure by many others).

As for the 2-channel analogue circuity in SP-3, which I presume similar to BP-26, is not fully balanced, is it?

Thanks,
Klao

Hi Klao

The circuitry is a little different in the SP-3 from our previous processors or preamps. As I have said before though, when you get to this level of performance it is more a massaging of the circuits rather than an outright shift.  Evolutionary rather than Revolutionary. The SP-3 like the BP-26 has fully differential balanced inputs but if you are using the single ended inputs (as the reviewer did) in either preamp then it is not a differential input of course.

The SP-3 analog section has a really nice what I would call 'Natural' sound about it. My first reaction to it was that it had detail and terrific resolution but not at the expense of a 'foward' or 'at you' kind of presentation. The soundstage moves out, back and away from the plain of the speaker.

James

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1650 on: 21 Apr 2012, 01:45 pm »
I have been asked a few times why no digital room correction on the Bryston SP-3 Processor.

The problem I see with Digital room correction through ‘EQ’ is that it totally screws up the direct sound vs the reflected sound coming from the speaker. 
 
When you listen to a speaker in a room you are listening to what we call the ‘power response’ and you hear all the direct sound as well as the reflected sound mixed together.  So the listening experience is a combination of all the direct and reflected sound waves in a given room with a given speaker. When you alter the ‘direct sound’ at the speaker using ‘EQ’ it totally changes the relationship between the direct and reflected sound and is a disaster when it comes to ‘time smear’.  So the speaker designer has spent years attempting to get flat frequency and phase response from his speaker and we come along and force the speaker to do anything but accurate signal transfer. Also if you are going to use ‘EQ’ try and only ‘reduce’ the ‘peaks’ in the room and not ‘amplify’ the troughs.  Amplifying the troughs can play havoc with your speaker drivers power handling.

A lot of these newer types of ‘EQ’ products try and average a group of curves taken from many different locations in the room as they are attempting to reduce the negative effects of the single listening chair dilemma. Having a single spot in the room which measures flat but everywhere else in the room measures like crap is not a good result in my opinion. I think you are much better off adjusting the speaker location and using proper room treatments.  If all else fails maybe some ‘EQ’ can be used but I would recommend keeping the correction only for the very low bass frequencies and stay away from upper bass, mids and higher frequency ‘EQ’ where room affects are not an issue due to the shorter wavelengths involved.  I am hopeful that we will see many more Subwoofers with built in room ‘EQ’ which would be the better solution in my opinion if you are forced to use room correction.

Also ‘Room Correction’ much like ‘Video’ is changing quickly and I wanted the SP-3 to be a long-term purchase for our customers so adding specific dedicated boxes as the current technologies develop to the SP-3 made more sense to me going forward rather than obsoleting some questionable feature in the SP-3.
 
Hope this helps.
 
James

brucek

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1651 on: 22 Apr 2012, 12:23 am »
Quote
Also if you are going to use ‘EQ’ try and only ‘reduce’ the ‘peaks’ in the room and not ‘amplify’ the troughs.  Amplifying the troughs can play havoc with your speaker drivers power handling.

Agreed. Dips are caused by phase cancellations, where the sound reaching the listening position is a combination of an original direct soundwave and a reflected sound that is 180 degrees out of phase at the dip (one half wavelength). When you add a gain filter at that dip frequency, not only does the direct sound increase by the number of dB of the filter, but unfortunately the 180 degree out of phase signal also applies an equal and opposite signal to counteract. The result is that your dip is still there and you have wasted the gain you've thrown at it.

But with a peak, the direct signal arriving at the listening position is combining with a reflected signal that is in phase at the peak. When a cut filter is applied, not only does the direct signal drop, so does the reflected signal drop at the same time. The peak is easily reduced.

Either way, it's not smart to apply any EQ at frequencies above 100Hz - the wavelengths are too short above that for the the repaired listening position to be large enough to matter - don't move your head when listening or the EQ would be ineffective.

BruceSB

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1652 on: 23 Apr 2012, 01:20 am »
Hi James
About 18 months ago I asked you about room correction.
Your answer (in addition to what you have said above) said that there is room correction available on the chip and that if you went in the room correction direction you would use Audyssey but only below 200.
I am wondering what your current attitude is.
Is it "eventually but we are in no hurry"?
Is it "we have lost interest"?
Is it "lets see what improvements Audyssey comes up with"?
Taking on board what you have said above, my personal preference would be Audyssey below 100 (or maybe 120).
I guess that like lots of others I would be looking for some room correction to deal with the worst of the room peaks (& I know that my room has them!!) but I would prefer the correction to be in the processor not the subs.
Can you give us some further elaboration on this and especially the points that I have raise?
Many thanks.
Bruce

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1653 on: 23 Apr 2012, 02:16 am »
Hi James
About 18 months ago I asked you about room correction.
Your answer (in addition to what you have said above) said that there is room correction available on the chip and that if you went in the room correction direction you would use Audyssey but only below 200.
I am wondering what your current attitude is.
Is it "eventually but we are in no hurry"?
Is it "we have lost interest"?
Is it "lets see what improvements Audyssey comes up with"?
Taking on board what you have said above, my personal preference would be Audyssey below 100 (or maybe 120).
I guess that like lots of others I would be looking for some room correction to deal with the worst of the room peaks (& I know that my room has them!!) but I would prefer the correction to be in the processor not the subs.
Can you give us some further elaboration on this and especially the points that I have raise?
Many thanks.
Bruce

Hi Bruce,

I would say at this point it is not a high priority for us.

james

BruceSB

Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1654 on: 23 Apr 2012, 04:03 am »
Thanks James
Very clear answer.
I guess that we will all see what the future holds.
Bruce

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1655 on: 24 Apr 2012, 05:21 pm »
I have been asked a few times why no digital room correction on the Bryston SP-3 Processor.

The problem I see with Digital room correction through ‘EQ’ is that it totally screws up the direct sound vs the reflected sound coming from the speaker. 
 
When you listen to a speaker in a room you are listening to what we call the ‘power response’ and you hear all the direct sound as well as the reflected sound mixed together.  So the listening experience is a combination of all the direct and reflected sound waves in a given room with a given speaker. When you alter the ‘direct sound’ at the speaker using ‘EQ’ it totally changes the relationship between the direct and reflected sound and is a disaster when it comes to ‘time smear’.  So the speaker designer has spent years attempting to get flat frequency and phase response from his speaker and we come along and force the speaker to do anything but accurate signal transfer. Also if you are going to use ‘EQ’ try and only ‘reduce’ the ‘peaks’ in the room and not ‘amplify’ the troughs.  Amplifying the troughs can play havoc with your speaker drivers power handling.

A lot of these newer types of ‘EQ’ products try and average a group of curves taken from many different locations in the room as they are attempting to reduce the negative effects of the single listening chair dilemma. Having a single spot in the room which measures flat but everywhere else in the room measures like crap is not a good result in my opinion. I think you are much better off adjusting the speaker location and using proper room treatments.  If all else fails maybe some ‘EQ’ can be used but I would recommend keeping the correction only for the very low bass frequencies and stay away from upper bass, mids and higher frequency ‘EQ’ where room affects are not an issue due to the shorter wavelengths involved.  I am hopeful that we will see many more Subwoofers with built in room ‘EQ’ which would be the better solution in my opinion if you are forced to use room correction.

Also ‘Room Correction’ much like ‘Video’ is changing quickly and I wanted the SP-3 to be a long-term purchase for our customers so adding specific dedicated boxes as the current technologies develop to the SP-3 made more sense to me going forward rather than obsoleting some questionable feature in the SP-3.
 
Hope this helps.
 
James


James,

I have never asked for this, as I know it is irrelevant to the proper sounding setup in a listening environment, as you noted within…’proper speaker placement and room treatments’.  A number of years ago I wrote an article, for most likely Residential Systems or Pro Sound News, where I setup a room as follows;

Lexicon MC-12, w/o room treatments…settings by ear, w/o treatment with Radio Shack meter, with room treatments, and finally with the $3600 AKG (4) mic room correction kit optioned by Harman.  (fronts were most likely B&W 802 & rears were either B&W or Genelec 8030) The result, my ear was only off by 1dB from the meter (except the sub )…and the room, TREATED w/o room correction was FAR superior to the ‘corrected EQ’ room, w/o treatment.  So your comment reflects my many tests.

Dr. D’Antonio might, if he had time, comment on this, but suffice to say, any studio, anywhere in the world, if properly designed, is treated to take advantage of said space, without need for EQ.  DSP as we know maybe used in post but for different reasons.  Dr. D., might give you the science behind it, as it relates to your comment within, but I think BRYSTON is proper in not using a pseudo room correction EQ.

By the way, Alan Parsons was recently quoted in a magazine as saying that Room treatment should be a primary consideration, as it is in the professional field, whereas in the consumer market, it is more of a ‘snake oil’ mystique of an esoteric labeled product.

Wayne


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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1656 on: 24 Apr 2012, 05:32 pm »
From: David
Sent: April-24-12 1:30 PM
To: James Tanner
Subject: Re: Bryston SP-3 No Room Correction

Hi James

My input is I've spent countless hours finessing room EQ for home theatre using a few Pioneer Elite receivers.

For my room, I've worked out the best solutions for low frequency bass management as well as basic room eq for mid and upper frequencies. I've added and subtracted subs and done the measurements and tests all over again.

After countless hours and measurements finding the best sound, I turned it all off and now use none. No eq at all. It's just not needed.

David

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1657 on: 24 Apr 2012, 06:58 pm »
FWIW I agree, and have set up several rooms specifically to not use any processor correction at all. Some friends wondered about the relative angles and how far away the rear channels were, but when you skip corrections for time and amplitude the sound is much cleaner and much more coherent. When PCM tracks were still included in movies I could always get better sound from that than DTS or DD.

It always surprises people how little room treatment is actually needed in a properly designed assymetrical listening area, and how a second sub to break up room modes always works better than treatments or processing.

Best Regards,
Mark Thoman
ST Marketing, Ltd.

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1658 on: 24 Apr 2012, 07:02 pm »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

James
 
I 100% agree with you.

Sadly, what everyone (most people) want is the instant fix, the magic bullet, the instant pill.  The audio viagra knob.
 
We have JL Audio installers who, while otherwise sort-of well intentioned dealers, simply hit ARO on the JL sub, Audyssey on the receiver, then say they are done and go to lunch. Then downstream a little bit I get the discouraged call from the end user, who fancies themself an audiophile, and wants to know why it doesn't "seem" as if their entire system is performing quite as good as it could.
 
In short, they want to tweak, but are not really sure what to tweak.
 
I liken this to no matter what the chef prepares, nearly everyone will salt and pepper the plate before even tasting it. It's just human nature.
 
And in dealing with end user and support for the last 20+ years, I find that essentially EVERYONE is convinced the laws of physics do not apply in "their" room; that "their" room is not going to have any standing waves or flutter echo; and that they are somehow going to get 4000 watts of audio out of a 120V 15A outlet in North America.
 
I will extrapolate on all this in gruesome detail in my forthcoming book, Audio Anthropology. I'll make sure you get a preview copy.
 
Kind regards,
Barry Ober
Senior Audio Engineer
Owner and Chief Science Officer

Simm

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Re: SP 3.0?
« Reply #1659 on: 25 Apr 2012, 12:47 am »
Question: What should users of the SP 3.0 do to best accommodate vinyl? Should Bryston offer a solution tailored to the SP 3.0 other than their current offerings?