Panasonic SA XRS Digital amplifier/HT Receiver

JackStraw · « **Reply #240 on:** 29 Nov 2003, 07:26 pm »

Quote from: A6M-ZERO

I just took the plunge this evening. Unless things go better at work, this will probably be my last purchase for a few months.

I will be comparing this unit directly to the Sony AVD S50 ES. Now its just a waiting game, and waiting to receive a reply from stereovox so I can order the digital cable.

Have you had a chance to compare these units, A6M-ZER0?

I'm on my second Sony AVD C70 ES -- the first unit wouldn't playback DVDs, and the second has WAY too much transport noise. From what I've read on other threads here I think that the transport noise is typical of the Sony All-in-one units... I find it horribly obtrusive. My assessment is that they are, as we all suspected, too good to be true.

Now I'm using my Aiwa to feed the Sony, and it sounds fantastic. But, I'm kicking myself for paying for the C70's DVD/SACD/CD capability without using it. And, the size of the C70 and limited I/O capabilities have me considering returning it, eating the restock fee, and getting a Panny 45 or dumping more money into the Sony machine for a 2000ES.

Any and all thoughts/recommendations are welcome.

djklmnop · « **Reply #241 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 06:25 am »

Hey guys, I'm still not clear on the "Audio Out" section. Is it a "pre-out" or is it simply a "Line Out"?

Andy

Ears · « **Reply #242 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 06:50 am »

Line out only.

Images · « **Reply #243 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 05:22 pm »

I purchased the SA-XR45 about two weeks ago. Indeed it is a lot of amplification for the $. I have found it to work remarkably well for HT, but I am less enthusiastic about the two channel music reproduction. My concern is low frequency response, especially low level low frequency response. For instance, the first two minutes of the "Saturn" section of Holst's "The Planets," or the opening of Stravinsky's "The Firebird Suite," or the cut "You Look Good to Me" on the Oscar Peterson release "We Get Requests," all have bass lines that are pianissimo. The trouble is with the SA-XR in my system is that they are TOO pianissimo.

I am running the digital out from a DVD player directly into the Panasonic, though I was quite surprised to find that I got more articulation from a $20 2 meter toslink Monster Cable than from the Harmonic Technology Cyberlink Silver digital cable that I customarily use. I am powering the unit with a Harmonic Tech. Pro AC11 CL-3. This also has been quite satisfactory in the past. Additionally, there is an adapter for the PC to Panasonic which is also manufactured by Harmonic Tech. I don't know why I am not getting the bottom-end response that I previously had in the system when using the amplifier section from an old Denon receiver and a tubed preamp from Audio by Van Alstine. And while I am grumbling, though I am quite pleased with the articulation, I realize with the SA-XR45 in the system the music sometimes sounds a bit thin to me. I am uncertain but I suspect that notes do not have the harmonic content I expect, and/or the decay is less than I am accustomed to.

OK, what can I do? I imagine a mod with a capacitor upgrade is in order. I have not previously done this, but I won't let that stop me. Any suggestions as to how I might enhance the bottom-end response of this Panasonic reciever are both welcome and invited. Thanks in advance.

Audi-O · « **Reply #244 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 05:53 pm »

Do you have the front speakers set to large and all other modes defeated to 2-CH Stereo? By default the units speaker settings are set to small, crossover set at 100Hz. I heard the same problem when it was straight out of the box. Bass shouldn't be any issue as I found it to be its biggest strength. You will need the manual to figure out how to change the speaker settings.

Ron

Images · « **Reply #245 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 07:34 pm »

Thanks for your input Ron.

I had the Mains set for Large, but I also had surrounds available for use when selecting TV, DVD, or VCR. The front panel on the Panasonic did read "stereo" in red letters when I previously selected CD. I don't use a sub. I reconfigured the settings so that only Large Mains are available, but this did not seem to make any particular difference.

My speaker cables are Analysis Plus Oval 12s, and I bi-wire some Monster Cable 14 guage "lamp wire" to the tweeters. This lamp cord, if anything, should be the weak link, but there is no lacking in the top-end. The speakers are mtm configured, Diy monitors from Bamberg Engineering, but don't let the term monitor throw you off. Here are the specs: http://www.bamberglab.com/s45k.htm. The product spiel reads: "The lower midrange; 160-320 Hertz. Perhaps the Power Region is the most overlooked region in the entire audible range. Are you missing it, and how can you be sure? The BESL Series 4.5k knows, and provides a certain satisfying richness to the sound, which is so often lacking in other loudspeakers. Left-hand piano is delivered with authority, putting the "Grand" back into grand piano. Harmonically-rich instruments are portrayed with a seemingly enhanced vibrancy. Mid and upper bass is articulate, even "snappy". This range is responsible for much of the rhythmic quality in music, and here the Series 4.5k is a natural."

I have found these claims to be largely true. Sooooo, I don't think the problem is the speakers, though they are only 86db sensitive with a 4 ohm load. Perhaps the SA-XR45 is more dynamic than I am used to. As a result the fortissimos are louder, but the pianissimos are softer. That's one theory, anyway. It does seem to me that the bass appears to have more precise pitch, just less gain. The only way I know to correct this is to address the power supply in some fashion... but this is a whole new amplifier topology, so what do I know?

I know what I need to know. I need to know more than I do right now.

Again, any suggestions are welcome and invited. Thanks in advance.

Audi-O · « **Reply #246 on:** 5 Dec 2003, 11:23 pm »

I guess I only addressed the most obvious potential problem. I just thought it was a possibility. I had never expected the main settings to be set to small when I received it. I was glad they were after first hearing it. It sounds like you have everything set right. I hope I didn't imply that you could have been a novice!

I had been using a Rotel RA02 with my Daline 3.1s before I switched to the Panny. The Dalines do have a more uniform output throughout the spectrum now, not to say the Rotel was bad, just that the Panasonic does sound more involving to me (stock cord, optical input from Panny DVD player, analog TV). The Dalines are 8-Ohms I believe, plus they are 89DB efficient. Is there any type of damping factor (digital amps??) in the Panny that could affect the bass in your speakers vs. your other amp? How do you like the overall musicality? Does one amp seem more right to you?

Ron

BrunoB · « **Reply #247 on:** 6 Dec 2003, 02:55 pm »

Quote from: Audi-O

. Is there any type of damping factor (digital amps??) in the Panny that could affect the bass in your speakers vs. your other amp? How do you like the overall musicality? Does one amp seem more right to you?

This discussion reminds me the Sony white paper. I reproduced the bass related part here:

Quote from: Sony S-Master Pro white paper

Digital amplifiers like the S-Master Pro design can be highly accurate—in
some respects they can even be too accurate. Phase linearity is an issue with
analog amplifiers and a contributor to analog sound. When you connect a realworld
amplifier to a real-world loudspeaker, the interaction causes significant
departure from phase linearity at frequencies below 30 or 50 Hz. Sony studies
show a typical deviation from linear phase of about +90 degrees. While not
making the bass any louder or softer, this shift does have a subtle effect, creating
warmer and more accessible bass.

Because this phase shift is common across many brands of amplifiers at
many price points, the shift has a broad effect on loudspeaker design.
Consciously or not, loudspeaker designers take this phase shift into account
when they fine-tune the sound of their products.
This raises an interesting dilemma. Should a new digital amplifier
incorporate this phase shift or leave the sound in its original state? After
extensive listening tests, Sony decided to give users the choice of applying an
equivalent phase shift in the digital domain, using a dedicated Digital Signal
Processor, the Sony CXD9776Q. This LSI adjusts low-frequency phase with
internal accuracy equal to a 65-bit process. We call this circuit the DC Phase
Linearizer, because it "restores" low-frequency phase, emulating the signal that
the speaker would get from a top-quality analog amplifier.

neilr11 · « **Reply #248 on:** 6 Dec 2003, 03:04 pm »

Besides swapping out the power cord, has anybody modded the Panny 25 or 45? What did you do and what was the outcome?

ABEX · « **Reply #249 on:** 6 Dec 2003, 03:28 pm »

Neil
Check the Bolder Cables BB here at AC.Wayne has done a few mods.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #250 on:** 7 Dec 2003, 05:48 am »

Audi-O, a digital amp has about the maximum damping possible from an amplifier. In real world terms it looks a whole lot like nearly zero ohms to the loudspeaker and as a result it may have the best control of the woofer of any amplifier design. A solid state analogue amp can sound almost the same in the bottom end but it takes a very well designed and executed amp to accomplish this.

zzoli · « **Reply #251 on:** 9 Dec 2003, 07:23 pm »

Regarding the bass phase lineariser circuit: this feature is defeatable on the Sony digital receivers. See Customize menu, Advanced Settings, DC P. linearizer and set it to Off.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #252 on:** 9 Dec 2003, 08:13 pm »

zzoli, cool, thanks for the update. Previous anti-sony rant removed.

AphileEarlyAdopter · « **Reply #253 on:** 10 Dec 2003, 10:18 pm »

Quote from: zzoli

Regarding the bass phase lineariser circuit: this feature is defeatable on the Sony digital receivers. See Customize menu, Advanced Settings, DC P. linearizer and set it to Off.

I am interested in buying one of these Sony 'Digital Drive' receivers. I have heard a lot about the Panasonic but there is not enough feedback on the Sony's. I guess you have one, how would you compare it with some 1-2K Int amps and .5-1K player ?

zzoli · « **Reply #254 on:** 17 Dec 2003, 02:10 pm »

Wish I had one!
I'm just a user manual junkie. I d/l the manuals of things I'm interested in (software, consumer electronics, etc.) You know, this is a cheap way to almost have an equipment

Still, I'm actively planning the purchase of a Sony digital receiver - perhaps the next generation? (Hopefully with IEE1394 interface on the lower cost units, too)

morasp · « **Reply #255 on:** 28 Dec 2003, 01:13 pm »

Quote from: Images

I purchased the SA-XR45 about two weeks ago. Indeed it is a lot of amplification for the $. I have found it to work remarkably well for HT, but I am less enthusiastic about the two channel music reproduction. My concern is low frequency response, especially low level low frequency response. For instance, the first two minutes of the "Saturn" section of Holst's "The Planets," or the opening of Stravinsky's "The Firebird Suite," or the cut "You Look Good to Me" on the Oscar Peterson release "We Get Reques ...

It sounds good in my system but I have an ACI TItan II LE connected. One thing that makes a difference in the bass for me is blue circle noisehounds which clean up the AC with a slight impact on the high frequencies. I had been using the Cryoed AC adapter and just switched to the non cryoed version for an improvement in bass also.

Code Chemist · « **Reply #256 on:** 7 Jan 2004, 03:48 pm »

Hi folks, I'm new here. This seems like a great audio forum and I'm looking forward to learning a lot from everyone!

I'm particularly interested in this thread because I've been intrigued with the Panasonic ever since I read a review of it in one of the mainstream mags. I used to be a big audiophile (big audiophile, small budget

), but for the last 7-8 years or so I've been focusing in on computers, instead. Imagine my surprise, after being out of the loop for so long, to read the specs of the Panny and then see it's dimensions and price!! Digital amplifiers are truly amazing.

I'm considering getitng a multichannel amp (being a grad student I'm still on an el cheapo budget) to replace my aging Luxman LV-105, and this Panasonic unit really looks terrific. One thing I don't understand, however. How could changing the power cable have any impact on the quality of the sound? Could someone clue me in on this?

ABEX · « **Reply #257 on:** 7 Jan 2004, 04:17 pm »

There is alot of RFI that is picked up from the stock cord I think one person has mentioned that for one thing.Plus the cord itself is really just a piece of $&%.

If you want a better cord buy the Adaptor and Bob Crump design cord from redcobra.com or for a better cord then that there is Waynes at Boldercable or cables.com

Do not ua NRG cord from Audioquest from what I have read.Another thing to consider is that you can improve performance by modifying the unit through Bolder also which is being worked out at the moment.

Hope that helps.

kendrid · « **Reply #258 on:** 7 Jan 2004, 09:54 pm »

Quote from: AphileEarlyAdopter

Quote from: zzoli
Regarding the bass phase lineariser circuit: this feature is defeatable on the Sony digital receivers. See Customize menu, Advanced Settings, DC P. linearizer and set it to Off.

I am interested in buying one of these Sony 'Digital Drive' receivers. I have heard a lot about the Panasonic but there is not enough feedback on the Sony's. I guess you have one, how would you compare it with some 1-2K Int amps and .5-1K player ?

I've had both in my system, and I kept the Sony. I have the 2000ES mated with ACI Sapphires. The 2000 has no problems driving the inefficient Sapphires to very loud levels while keeping the woofer under control.

My past unit was a Jolida 1501RC hybrid tube amp. I sold it for the Sony. It is still 'weird' to type that, but the Sony is really that good.

Code Chemist · « **Reply #259 on:** 8 Jan 2004, 04:49 pm »

Is the Sony also a digital amp? If so, is it a pure Sony design or are they using someone else's digital amp chips?